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Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

Brian Finch

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I'm going to phrase this several ways.

--Should a skier begin tilting the ski on edge by pronating/supinating the foot inside the boot before tilting the shin? YES
--Does this independent tilting of the foot inside the boot beneficially impact the tipping of the ski? If so, how? The Leg is really a Twizzler ; Pronation helps the tibia rotate inward; inward rotation of the tibia helps the knee flex, when the knee flexes, you get more internal rotation of the tibia & the hip; internal rotation of the hip is the key leverage.
--Does this benefit depend on the footbed allowing the foot to supinate/pronate inside the boot without any tilting of the cuff? YES, its the difference in kinetic energy found between tossing a towel at someone and loading the system, taking up the slack & giving a good whip w/ a towel. Same object, differing delivery.
--Is this independent early foot tipping inside the boot needed not for ski control, but for comfort? YMMV, but I'm more comfy when not in the B netting. :)
 

Sanity

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I'm going to phrase this several ways.

--Should a skier begin tilting the ski on edge by pronating/supinating the foot inside the boot before tilting the shin?
--Does this independent tilting of the foot inside the boot beneficially impact the tipping of the ski? If so, how?
--Does this benefit depend on the footbed allowing the foot to supinate/pronate inside the boot without any tilting of the cuff?
--Is this independent early foot tipping inside the boot needed not for ski control, but for comfort?

Movements of the ankle are part of the motions for knee angulation. Rolling the ankle inside of a ski boot in isolation will do absolutely nothing. Ankle movements bring the knee in which levers on the boot which then levers on the ski which tips the ski. If anyone has any doubts, stand on your ski on the floor without ski boots, and see if you are able to tip the ski by rolling your ankles or actually any other movement for that matter. The boots can be pretty darn tight, and ankle movements will still result in the necessary knee movement, because it's not about the ankle rolling in the boot. It's about the ankle levering on the knee. Then the last question would be if you can just merely use your inner thigh to move the knee. You can, and it must be used and engaged, however, you get more range adding in the ankle, and you get some fine motor control.
 

Chris V.

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Certain things are unchangeable. The soles of our feet, and bits of the sides of our feet, are our connection with terra firma. All the forces mediating between our bodies and the outside world ordinarily go through there. All the feedback we get with our sense of touch comes through there. If it's coming from higher in the body, it means something has gone terribly wrong! Stiff ski boots will give us some feedback through the shins, but our sense of touch there is poorly developed, and the feedback will be crude. Look at all those little ridges on your foot soles. They're there to serve a purpose.

I don't have the background to fully understand how the "kinetic chain" gets fired up. I'll leave it to others to describe that. You can find much that's been written in that subject.

But I can say this. I believe in embracing and building upon the natural functioning of our bodies. Trying to develop skiing movements that run counter to that isn't likely to work out well. By initiating skiing movements with the feet, we harness and build upon the evolved natural abilities of the feet to bear forces in ways that function best, allowing the feet to pass those forces up through the skeleton and musculature into the upper body. This promotes balance, or deliberate imbalance when and where called for. This immediately places the sensitive parts of our feet in strong, functional contact with the forces coming up from the snow, allowing the nervous system to receive the full spectrum of information needed for us to make rapid conscious and subconscious decisions going forward.

To propel us across terra firma, the feet are evolved to change shape or deform a bit through the cycle of our stride. The same remains true when we are sliding over terra not-so-firma. Think about a steel arch bridge. The steel has some elasticity, so when a great weight is placed over the arch it deforms downward a bit, and redirects and redistributes the downward force toward both ends of the arch. Feet function in a similar fashion.

Why would we want to impede that natural functioning? I find very credible and persuasive the arguments of those who advocate soft footbeds that don't place stiff support under the arches. Even they acknowledge that individuals differ, and that there are some persons who due to individual anatomy, or anatomical changes over time, need extra arch support in order to withstand the heightened forces that dynamic skiing produces. But for most, the goal should be to complement the natural functioning of the feet. The underside of the main arch of the foot is not evolved to be in weight-bearing contact with the ground!

The high, stiff cuffs of ski boots do serve a function. Ordinarily, the forces generated in a ski turn should continue to be borne through the feet. However, skiing can generate forces that are stronger than ordinarily encountered in walking or running. Thus I would say that contact between the shins and cuffs can productively bear some fraction of the peak lateral and forward forces a skier experiences. It just shouldn't become a substitute for more natural processes. (Maybe most importantly, those stiff cuffs help us catch ourselves and recenter when we encounter rough spots or something unexpected happens.)

The available range of tipping of the foot inside a stiff ski boot is obviously small. Creating substantial ski edge angles also requires inclination and the involvement of all the joints up the chain. However, starting with those relatively small movements inside the boots is crucial in order to place the correct parts of the feet in functional contact with the boots and, indirectly, the bindings, skis, and snow.

Natural movements should result in comfort! I don't know about you, but my brain prefers to restrain me from doing things that are uncomfortable, so comfort is going to improve my control!
 

David Orr

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Thanks to @tomgellie ...This Image of The Foot Tripod Concept:

Medial Arch, Lateral Arch, and Transverse Arch helped me understand the "Big Toe/Little Toe Thingy" which at the time...when I first heard it ...made absolutely no sense whatsoever.


3d Truss of Foot.jpg
 

Brian Finch

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^ When ya see from this perspective, I really wonder if a rigid foot bed could be used for creating a lever.
 

BS Slarver

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LF - what ability level are you looking to help?

Far different terminology and exercises used at different skill sets.

I like @Eric@ict toe approach.
I’ve used this from from beginner to advanced skiers

Imagine if you were to roll your fingers across the piano keys from thumb to pinky inside foot and pinky to thumb on outside foot it would be the same in your boots, put your hands out in front of you and try it.
 

slow-line-fast

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Work from the snow up. So feet. Moving them specifically adds fine motor control, and focuses the skier on the feedback they can get from noticing what they are feeling with their feet. Both are good.

You don’t want slop in a boot. Modify whatever is needed to get there.

Making turns on xc or leather tele equipment is a great way to focus in on what the feet do. Hop back into your alpine gear and you will be more solid than ever.
 

François Pugh

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FWIW, I find that tipping my foot inside the boot helps my skiing, in all ski boots, even rentals, even when wearing my very stiff antique fits like a cast - hard as concrete boots with over-posted footbeds. Works in all conditions, hard or soft snow or rock hard ice.

I think it's something to do with the unconscious commands my body gives out when trying to tip the foot (or as I think of it, the ski that is my foot) on edge. How that works I cannot say, 'cause if I were running around a corner, my ankle would be tipping the other way to keep the sole of my foot in good contact with the ground, which would not be helpful. Maybe not doing that is the whole point. :huh:
 

Rich_Ease_3051

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Just a thought liquidfeet, next time you're on the hill, consciously tip one leg by using just the shin and the other by using foot pronation/supination. At the same time.

I would do this myself, but I should be studying other beginner techniques first instead of ruminating on higher level questions.

My prediction is that there is more sensory perception of the angle with the foot "grasping" at the footbed vs the shin feeling the angle.

The base of the foot after all has more nerve endings than the shin. It's the reason it's ticklish.
 

Henry

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I'm going to phrase this several ways.

--Should a skier begin tilting the ski on edge by pronating/supinating the foot inside the boot before tilting the shin?
--Does this independent tilting of the foot inside the boot beneficially impact the tipping of the ski? If so, how?
--Does this benefit depend on the footbed allowing the foot to supinate/pronate inside the boot without any tilting of the cuff?
--Is this independent early foot tipping inside the boot needed not for ski control, but for comfort?
1--It is inverting not pronating (never supinating/everting). Pronation is your structure. Inverting is an action. Yes, before any tilting of the shin. Tilting the shin is an effect, not an action.
2--Inverting the foot impels the body toward the inside of the turn. It leads to countering and angulation.
3--Not so much the footbed but room in the cuff, at the ankle bone, for articulation. I needed my right boot cuff, at the outside ankle bone spot, pressed out.
4--No, totally the beginning movement to set up skiing on the inside edge of the outside ski.
 

fatbob

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Can't quote @Brian Finch's post above because it was text within a previous quote but I can understand everything he is saying there.

However I'm not sure I really believe that the foot actually moving relative to the clog is an essential part of firing up the kinetic chain. I know advocates are saying its not enough to be slop but Gellie talks about having his boots ground out around the bony parts to allow his foot to move into them in certain movements. Maybe rec boots always have some space so I've never experienced a feeling of my feet being set in concrete (and my worst experience with a boot where I got some frostbite was in a near plug shell)?

Surely if its about proprioception then its intent rather than the physical distance something moves that is important?

What's the difference between being able to put the medial arch over the skiedge or medial edge of a footbed over that ski edge? I can see the reponse to that might be - well you could be whole mm's out - so what? You just tip the foot more or less as required?

Sorry more questions than opinion but when I'm being sold some new flavour of snake oil and I've good results from the old flavour (including very durable footbeds built by @cem) I like to know whether it's for me or it's just some other branch of nerdery that will detract from my skiing enjoyment if I was to worry about it (and honestly I think there are bigger technical and fitness things that will improve my skiing before being able to invert my wide slab of meat feet in the clogs like Gellie can invert his skinny minnie ballerina feet)
 
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Jamt

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In order to "angulate at the knee" the foot must be tipped. To do that voluntarily is generally better than forcing it by muscles higher up in the chain.
subtalar joint.png
 

fatbob

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In order to "angulate at the knee" the foot must be tipped. To do that voluntarily is generally better than forcing it by muscles higher up in the chain.
Again I get that. But as I sit here barefoot I tip my foot, my ankle moves inward and my tibia and knee follows. I start with moving my knee and my foot stays more flat -footed. Hence thinking about inititiating movement from the foot up.

But I remain unclear as to why & whether it matters that that foot tipping is within and to a degree independent of the boot structure the foot is within or is directly transmitted to the boot sole/lugs. I guess the answer there is that there is something of a wind up effect and that when an inverted foot starts moving the boot the leverage is greater?

Put another way the range from part inverted to fully on edge is less than from flat. It shouldn't really matter over a full cycle of turns (as it just moves the timing to a different point) but maybe it just feels snappier?
 
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Brian Finch

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Can't quote @Brian Finch's post above because it was text within a previous quote but I can understand everything he is saying there.

However I'm not sure I really believe that the foot actually moving relative to the clog is an essential part of firing up the kinetic chain. I know advocates are saying its not enough to be slop but Gellie talks about having his boots ground out around the bony parts to allow his foot to move into them in certain movements. Maybe rec boots always have some space so I've never experienced a feeling of my feet being set in concrete (and my worst experience with a boot where I got some frostbite was in a near plug shell)?

Surely if its about proprioception then its intent rather than the physical distance something moves that is important?

What's the difference between being able to put the medial arch over the skiedge or medial edge of a footbed over that ski edge? I can see the reponse to that might be - well you could be whole mm's out - so what? You just tip the foot more or less as required?

Sorry more questions than opinion but when I'm being sold some new flavour of snake oil and I've good results from the old flavour (including very durable footbeds built by @cem) I like to know whether it's for me or it's just some other branch of nerdery that will detract from my skiing enjoyment if I was to worry about it (and honestly I think there are bigger technical and fitness things that will improve my skiing before being able to invert my wide slab of meat feet in the clogs like Gellie can invert his skinny minnie ballerina feet)

I actually agree with you. You don't have to ski this way; as you noted above, it may be snappier. That's how I feel about it.

Secondly, the type of boots he's referencing are plugs. I ski @tomgellie style in my plugs & need the areas of minimal tissue ground out in my plugs; I ski just fine in my coach's boots w/ lambswool footbeds that are 2 sizes larger.
 

slow-line-fast

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Again I get that. But as I sit here barefoot I tip my foot, my ankle moves inward and my tibia and knee follows. I start with moving my knee and my foot stays more flat -footed. Hence thinking about inititiating movement from the foot up.

But I remain unclear as to why & whether it matters that that foot tipping is within and to a degree independent of the boot structure the foot is within or is directly transmitted to the boot sole/lugs. I guess the answer there is that there is something of a wind up effect and that when an inverted foot starts moving the boot the leverage is greater?

Put another way the range from part inverted to fully on edge is less than from flat. It shouldn't really matter over a full cycle of turns (as it just moves the timing to a different point) but maybe it just feels snappier?


First paragraph - exactly.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting creating extra slop in a fit for the feet to swim around in.
 

Brian Finch

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^^Good infor.
I'm wondering how many of Tom's readers are in plug boots that have been fitted with maximum precision.

I always wonder when I participate in the Carv FB group & ppl are showing off their Carv equipt boots that also have hotronics, custom footbeds, heel wedges and a Intuition HD wrap liner.
 

fatbob

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I always wonder when I participate in the Carv FB group & ppl are showing off their Carv equipt boots that also have hotronics, custom footbeds, heel wedges and a Intuition HD wrap liner.

I think that the Carv demographic may well be "all the gear, varying levels of idea". I must admit that when I've briefly considered Carv (& rejected on the grounds that I have low patience for tech gimmickry) I thought I probably won't be able to fit them under my footbeds anyway.

Mind you it sits on the baseboard doesn't it so if you can tolerate a few mm of lift it should be fine, does sitting on the baseboard mean you start to affect it only when you have the boot sole moving or is it sensitive to pick up clog neutral inversion?
 
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Jamt

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Again I get that. But as I sit here barefoot I tip my foot, my ankle moves inward and my tibia and knee follows. I start with moving my knee and my foot stays more flat -footed. Hence thinking about inititiating movement from the foot up.

But I remain unclear as to why & whether it matters that that foot tipping is within and to a degree independent of the boot structure the foot is within or is directly transmitted to the boot sole/lugs. I guess the answer there is that there is something of a wind up effect and that when an inverted foot starts moving the boot the leverage is greater?

Put another way the range from part inverted to fully on edge is less than from flat. It shouldn't really matter over a full cycle of turns (as it just moves the timing to a different point) but maybe it just feels snappier?
I think there are two main reasons.

The first is balance, its just easier to balance if you use the feet.

The second is that you want the joints to be aligned with the forces. If the joints are outside of the main force plane when the ski bites the ski will chatter. You want the knee slightly on the inside but the subtalar joint will not be on the inside due to the boot, but you certainly want it as close to the inside as the boot allows, otherwise it will push the knee out.

You can get the knee to the inside by pushing it, but then it may be too far inside the force plane and a sudden force increase may lead to injury.
 

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