Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

[slow-line-fast]

Learning to dance

 

[Rod9301]

So if I raise the outside edge of my new outside foot while I'm raising the arch side of the other, it's a softer use. If I try to stand hard on my new outside foot, my leg gets stiff.

You don't need to do anything with the new outside foot, all you need to do is focus on the new inside foot, tipping it and pulling it back.

 

[slow-line-fast]

So if I raise the outside edge of my new outside foot while I'm raising the arch side of the other, it's a softer use. If I try to stand hard on my new outside foot, my leg gets stiff.

Will try to remember this one when I am back on snow. In the meantime, inline skates.

It’s one of the great challenges of ski technique, pressure without being stiff / losing touch for the snow.

 

[chilehed]

Do you have a video of this?

No, but the video posted by @Kneale Brownson above is good. To understand the bit about lightening the heel... while standing with no skis on, lift the inside-of-the-turn heel a little and swing it towards the other heel. It's like that.

 

[Wilhelmson]

How about in deeper snow? Is it helpful to tips both feet around the same time? I am not saying that the inside foot shouldn’t lead/lighten, just using both feet and ankles more gently.

 

[markojp]

Why would one want to do this? I've always thought of it as a chain of events that occurs...starting with tilting the feet, that initiates the shin tilt, which brings the ski up on edge, thus allowing for angulation, and deeper edging. I'm not sure why you'd want to practice breaking the chain after the first link.

Add edge angle by shortening the inside leg connected to that nicely tipped inside foot. If you only tip the feet, you won't get much additional edge angle.

 

[BMC]

I'm going to phrase this several ways.

--Should a skier begin tilting the ski on edge by pronating/supinating the foot inside the boot before tilting the shin?
--Does this independent tilting of the foot inside the boot beneficially impact the tipping of the ski? If so, how?
--Does this benefit depend on the footbed allowing the foot to supinate/pronate inside the boot without any tilting of the cuff?
--Is this independent early foot tipping inside the boot needed not for ski control, but for comfort?

I’ve always thought this depends on the skier. The aim is to have symmetrical (or close to) movement of your feet and legs. I don’t think the ambition is that there be an inflexible rule about this.

So if you’re outside ski dominant and moving the inside leg with a lag, then yes, tipping that inside foot first will be good. If you’re already good, nothing to change!!

My inexpert view

 

[mdf]

So if you’re outside ski dominant and moving the inside leg with a lag, then yes, tipping that inside foot first will be good. If you’re already good, nothing to change!!

yes. Also, it is difficult for a learner to acheive simultaneous motions. Inside ski too soon is pretty innocuous, while outside ski too soon can make the inside ski get stuck underneath the skier.

 

[cantunamunch]

Will try to remember this one when I am back on snow. In the meantime, inline skates.

All of everything spoken of here is directly and immediately trainable if you own a 20yd single-footed glide on skates.

 

[slow-line-fast]

All of everything spoken of here is directly and immediately trainable if you own a 20yd single-footed glide on skates.

That's not an entry condition. My skating glide instantly doubled with advice to step onto the outside edge.

 

[Tony S]

What I've taken from this:

Group A: You are a highly trained & ambitious technical skier who has spent years and thousands of dollars trying to get the closest possible boot fit - probably in a very stiff shell with a thin liner, thin socks, and a very supportive footbed.

Group B: Everyone else.

In the world of skiers at large, there are probably 999 Bs for every A. Here on SkiTalk, probably more like 99 Bs for every A. In the ski school forum, maybe more like 9 Bs for every A.

How many members of Group A are there, globally? A few thousand? Tens of thousands?Among a few million skiers?

Members of Group A may find that backing off slightly on the "aggressiveness" of the footbed provides some benefits. Group B ... nope.

MEANWHILE

This thread has some memorable quotes.

Both the Finns and Karelian Russians had hunting skis that would do exactly this - the "binding" was basically an interlock of the felt-soled snow boots and a piece of spiky animal fur on the ski itself.

Well, there's Tuna in a nutshell.

Brian Finch:

The Leg is really a Twizzler

Signature worthy.

is it preferable for that foot to be in a strong configuration with the bony arch solid or in a relatively weak, adaptive configuration?

Is a pronated foot, as advocated by Gellie, the former or the latter?

Dictionary entry for "rhetorical question."

 

[geepers]

A couple of basic questions occur to me:

During the pressure phase of a turn, when the stance foot is supporting some multiple of one’s body weight in force, is it preferable for that foot to be in a strong configuration with the bony arch solid or in a relatively weak, adaptive configuration?

Is a pronated foot, as advocated by Gellie, the former or the latter?

It is certainly true that the mechanics of skiing are not the same as those of normal gait (for obvious reasons), but it’s equally true that the fundamentals of normal foot function are fixed by its anatomy and structure. Just something to ponder.

If I understand correctly, Gellie advocates for pronating the foot in the transition to the new turn and in establishing the new outside ski as a platform on which to balance the whole body. The idea is we do this at the start of each step when walking and if we sense that the foot is not establishing a stable platform for us to balance on (e.g. sore foot or stone in the shoe) we'll get off that foot asap without loading it.

The pronation phase happens only for a short time and as the load from the ski builds as the turn progresses the foot should change to become a more rigid supporting structure so the rest of the body can relax where needed to move to the inside.

I may be misunderstanding - it happens often enough - but this last bit seems to be in line with "preferable for that foot to be in a strong configuration with the bony arch solid".

Dictionary entry for "rhetorical question."

Is there still a question, rhetorical or otherwise? Or is the issue really about our incomplete understanding of what some-one is advocating?

Group A: You are a highly trained & ambitious technical skier who has spent years and thousands of dollars trying to get the closest possible boot fit - probably in a very stiff shell with a thin liner, thin socks, and a very supportive footbed.

Surprising the number of good skiers in this small sample who don't have a supportive footbed.

Ski Boot Footbeds in 2017 - Elite Skiing

What do the EliteSkiing.com A-Team members have in their ski boots? One of our members asked me what the A-Teamers were using as far as footbeds in their ski boots. So, I posed the question to them all and found out that there is not...

eliteskiing.com

But, FWIW, suspect your group B assertion (my people!!) may well be right.

A favorite:

Interesting to note 0:34 - "It is helpful to develop these muscles prior to getting on the slope."

 

[geepers]

The big WOW I get is when I tell them that we're going to turn on power steering. The free foot pull-back gets the body center of mass aligned over the ski's sweet spot, and how sweet those skis now turn!

Agree, all skiing starts with the feet. The rest of the body movements amplify what the feet get started.

This is not the thread to discuss at length the inside foot pull-back, but yes, that's the power move once they are doing the tipping with their feet and legs. Wowza - the turning gets way more power immmediately.

Somewhat off the main track of this thread.... however quick questions...

1. What type of turns are you both doing this move in? (Pure carve/drifted, long/short?)
2. Where in the turn is this move done and where in the turn is it released?

 

[JESinstr]

The pronation phase happens only for a short time and as the load from the ski builds as the turn progresses the foot should change to become a more rigid supporting structure so the rest of the body can relax where needed to move to the inside.

I like this. And to feel this, try doing progressive speed rr tracks. On the slow and flat you will accentuate the pronation in favor of edge building vs structure. As speed (and forces) increase, the pronation phase will shorten, in favor of the need to build structure up the chain as the com moves inside the turn.

 

[Dave Marshak]

I haven't read this whole thread but when I was an instructor I often told my students to tip their foot. It wasn't "tip your foot and your center of mass will move toward the apex of the turn and your edges will create a perfect pure carved turn of radius sin(theta)..." It was just "try it and see what happens, then we'll figure why that works and eventually how to make it work better." A surprising number of skiers did worse, and then we'd figure that out and/or move on the something else. It's all learning. Learning to ski is an experimental process, not a predetermined procedure.

There's too much over-analyzing going on here. It's summer, but still...

dm

 

[Tony S]

I like this. And to feel this, try doing progressive speed rr tracks. On the slow and flat you will accentuate the pronation in favor of edge building vs structure. As speed (and forces) increase, the pronation phase will shorten, in favor of the need to build structure up the chain as the com moves inside the turn.

I suspect that one of the things that happens with over-pronators like me is that without a lot of external support we don't have any range of motion available to initiate a "pronation phase." The foot is already pronated at baseline. There's nowhere to go.

 

[Dave Marshak]

A surprising number of skiers did worse...

I suspect that one of the things that happens with over-pronators like me is that without a lot of external support we don't have any range of motion available to initiate a "pronation phase." The foot is already pronated at baseline. There's nowhere to go.

Maybe you were that guy who did worse.

dm

 

[fatbob]

While I thought I understood what was going on it this thread and the associated Kool Aid proposition now I'm less clear now people have started re-introducing "pronation". Do they mean "inversion" and would anyone care to venture a single definition of each term.

I thought pronation was something feet did as natural biomechanics and that deliberate actions were called inversion etc?

 

[JESinstr]

While I thought I understood what was going on it this thread and the associated Kool Aid proposition now I'm less clear now people have started re-introducing "pronation". Do they mean "inversion" and would anyone care to venture a single definition of each term.

I thought pronation was something feet did as natural biomechanics and that deliberate actions were called inversion etc?

I'll leave other folks to fight over definitions but what happens in @Kneale Brownson 's video at :28 is what I do to initiate the carving (circular travel) process. I LIFT the outside edges of my feet; I don't roll onto the inside edges of my feet.

Now, if I am on a relatively flat surface at slow speed, I am relying totally on my weight to begin bending the edged ski and since weight is a gravitational term, I need to DIRECT that weight (Pressure) to the inside edge of the outside ski (PSIA fundamental #2). Because I am under the influence of Gravity for my upright balance, this requires angulation from the bottom up to build edge angles because I can't commit my COM to the inside less I cease applying fundamental #2 or worst case, fall over.

As speed increases, Centripetal force develops and gradually supplants gravity as the force for upright balance allowing the COM to move off its gravitational axis to the inside of the turn and align with the force rising up from the edged outside ski. This is where structural strength needs to be developed in the outside leg while the inside leg regulates its length in support of the edge building requirements.

My interest in this thread is simply that, when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges. In terms of movement patterns that develop from the two techniques (focuses), I believe the difference in ski performance is noticeable.

 

[Tony S]

My interest in this thread is simply that, when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges. In terms of movement patterns that develop from the two techniques (focuses), I believe the difference in ski performance is noticeable.

Interesting! Hope I can remember to mess with this when I get on snow.