Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

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when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges.


I played with this today with parallel turns on inline skates. Nothing changed for me, today. I’ll keep playing with it also on snow when that comes. As @Dave Marshak said it’s a tinkering process. We never know which cues will resonate for which people in which moments (including ourselves), so it’s good to have a variety of tricks in the bag.
 

Dave Marshak

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My interest in this thread is simply that, when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges. In terms of movement patterns that develop from the two techniques (focuses), I believe the difference in ski performance is noticeable.
IME whether I tell a learner to lift the outside edges, or roll to the new edge, or evert or pronate, what they actually do varies among individuals. It's all an attempt to get them to engage the new edge cleanly. If you find that "lifting the outside edge" works for you, congratulations! you learned sometng. But it's that's specific to you and may not work for anyone else. I'm pretty sure that if I asked 10 students to "lift the outside edge" at least 3 of them wouldn't know what I was talking about.

FWIW I never asked anyone to lift the edge but if I were still teaching I would definitely try that.

dm
 

martyg

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IME whether I tell a learner to lift the outside edges, or roll to the new edge, or evert or pronate, what they actually do varies among individuals. It's all an attempt to get them to engage the new edge cleanly. If you find that "lifting the outside edge" works for you, congratulations! you learned sometng. But it's that's specific to you and may not work for anyone else. I'm pretty sure that if I asked 10 students to "lift the outside edge" at least 3 of them wouldn't know what I was talking about.

FWIW I never asked anyone to lift the edge but if I were still teaching I would definitely try that.

dm

This. I have about 6 ways of saying the same thing for each task. If I have a small group that has solid body awareness I might say, "Here's what we are trying to do, and here is two ways to think about it. Let's make slow, controlled turns down this run, and you determine what resonates with you."

We stop, and students provide feedback. No right or wrong answer. Then we continue and might do a bit of video to raise even more body awareness.
 

fatbob

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My interest in this thread is simply that, when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges. In terms of movement patterns that develop from the two techniques (focuses), I believe the difference in ski performance is noticeable.


Interesting. I was thinking I can't lift the outside of my foot without rolling the inside edge. But then when I try to focus on the outside I do feel my lateral calf muscle activating so maybe that's it?
 

JESinstr

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I played with this today with parallel turns on inline skates. Nothing changed for me, today. I’ll keep playing with it also on snow when that comes. As @Dave Marshak said it’s a tinkering process. We never know which cues will resonate for which people in which moments (including ourselves), so it’s good to have a variety of tricks in the bag
Although great for balance, I don't think inline skates are an apples to apples comparison. The ski is entirely different in construction and intended function and how we make the ski function to its full potential should be of interest to most.
IME whether I tell a learner to lift the outside edges, or roll to the new edge, or evert or pronate, what they actually do varies among individuals. It's all an attempt to get them to engage the new edge cleanly. If you find that "lifting the outside edge" works for you, congratulations! you learned sometng. But it's that's specific to you and may not work for anyone else. I'm pretty sure that if I asked 10 students to "lift the outside edge" at least 3 of them wouldn't know what I was talking about.

FWIW I never asked anyone to lift the edge but if I were still teaching I would definitely try that.

dm
See Fatbob below
This. I have about 6 ways of saying the same thing for each task. If I have a small group that has solid body awareness I might say, "Here's what we are trying to do, and here is two ways to think about it. Let's make slow, controlled turns down this run, and you determine what resonates with you."

We stop, and students provide feedback. No right or wrong answer. Then we continue and might do a bit of video to raise even more body awareness.

Interesting. I was thinking I can't lift the outside of my foot without rolling the inside edge. But then when I try to focus on the outside I do feel my lateral calf muscle activating so maybe that's it?

Exactly! This is not about "tricks in the bag" or different ways to explain things. There are different muscles invoked when the movement patterns are changed. If you play golf, you know what I mean!
 

Chris V.

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I'll leave other folks to fight over definitions....
One definition of pronation, at any rate, from the Wikipedia: "A natural movement of the foot that occurs during foot landing while running or walking. Composed of three cardinal plane components: subtalar eversion, ankle dorsiflexion, and forefoot abduction, these three distinct motions of the foot occur simultaneously during the pronation phase. Pronation is a normal, desirable, and necessary component of the gait cycle. Pronation is the first half of the stance phase, whereas supination starts the propulsive phase as the heel begins to lift off the ground." (Emphasis added.)

In discussions in these threads, "pronation" has variously been used to describe an action or a position. The action occupies only a short bit of the turn cycle, but the position may be held for quite a while depending on turn radius and duration.
 

Chris V.

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Members of Group A may find that backing off slightly on the "aggressiveness" of the footbed provides some benefits.
Or more than slightly. Call those people Group C. A much tinier fraction yet of the skiing public.
 

Chris V.

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The pronation phase happens only for a short time and as the load from the ski builds as the turn progresses the foot should change to become a more rigid supporting structure so the rest of the body can relax where needed to move to the inside.
Would you please expand on what you mean by "rigid supporting structure?" A footbed may be rigid and supportive of the arch, and thus lend rigidity to the whole supporting structure. Absent that, I wouldn't call the foot's support "rigid." Individual bones are rigid, or nearly so (not quite). The full structure of the foot is articulated and a bit flexible and elastic, even when fully loaded, right?
 

Rod9301

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I'll leave other folks to fight over definitions but what happens in @Kneale Brownson 's video at :28 is what I do to initiate the carving (circular travel) process. I LIFT the outside edges of my feet; I don't roll onto the inside edges of my feet.

Now, if I am on a relatively flat surface at slow speed, I am relying totally on my weight to begin bending the edged ski and since weight is a gravitational term, I need to DIRECT that weight (Pressure) to the inside edge of the outside ski (PSIA fundamental #2). Because I am under the influence of Gravity for my upright balance, this requires angulation from the bottom up to build edge angles because I can't commit my COM to the inside less I cease applying fundamental #2 or worst case, fall over.

As speed increases, Centripetal force develops and gradually supplants gravity as the force for upright balance allowing the COM to move off its gravitational axis to the inside of the turn and align with the force rising up from the edged outside ski. This is where structural strength needs to be developed in the outside leg while the inside leg regulates its length in support of the edge building requirements.

My interest in this thread is simply that, when initiating a turn, we lift the outside edges of our feet vs rolling on to inside edges. In terms of movement patterns that develop from the two techniques (focuses), I believe the difference in ski performance is noticeable.
Are you saying that when you start a turn to the right you lift the outside edge of the left foot?
 

cantunamunch

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Why does the ski being spent make a difference with this?

Because a spent ski will be slower than a fresh one to roll onto the BTE -every segment in between the binding and the edge bends more on the spent ski - whereas unweighting the LTE is essentially unloaded and equally fast on both skis.

Think of a spent ski as a quad skate with somewhat-flexible axles.


Which reminds me - I need to bring that thread back.
 
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Dave Marshak

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Exactly! This is not about "tricks in the bag" or different ways to explain things. There are different muscles invoked when the movement patterns are changed. If you play golf, you know what I mean!
Telling a skier to tip his foot or lift his toes is a coaching direction, not a movement pattern. Everyones' response to that direction will be different. IME the number of learners who respond in some dysfunctional way to any coach's direction is about equal to the number who respond positively. It's not a trick, it's about finding what the student will respond to, which requires finding different ways to explain things.
In this discussion, "tipping the foot" may be a description of a movement pattern, but few of us know enough about anatomy to accurately describe which muscles are invoked and in what sequence.
I'll stick with the coaching process that I have found to work, and leave the perfect descriptions to others.

dm
 

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While I thought I understood what was going on it this thread and the associated Kool Aid proposition now I'm less clear now people have started re-introducing "pronation". Do they mean "inversion" and would anyone care to venture a single definition of each term.

I thought pronation was something feet did as natural biomechanics and that deliberate actions were called inversion etc?
When I learned to drive, it was on the old farm trucks, no power at all. You had to use your whole leg to brake and your whole body to turn the wheel when you were going slow. When dad let me drive one of the cars and I almost put us through the windshield because of how I operated the brake, he said use your big toe to apply brakes.

When my instructor told me big toe, little toe, that made sense. By adding pressure left foot big toe, right little toe, my turn was starting, and I added power and driving into to turn. Being able to tie it to power brakes vs non power brakes it all made it sense to me. Hope that helps.
 

fatbob

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^ yeah not in the slightest;)

It's just another confusing analogy which does nothing to answer the question of what exactly people are talking about.

Don't get me wrong I love simple imagery as a way of prompting actions - I basically taught myself to tele using Allen & Mike's book and have yet to find a book re alpine skiing as beatifully simple and free spirited. But I sense everyone in this thread has their own slightly different imagery and/ or perception of what they are doing.
 

geepers

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Would you please expand on what you mean by "rigid supporting structure?" A footbed may be rigid and supportive of the arch, and thus lend rigidity to the whole supporting structure. Absent that, I wouldn't call the foot's support "rigid." Individual bones are rigid, or nearly so (not quite). The full structure of the foot is articulated and a bit flexible and elastic, even when fully loaded, right?

1. Key word is "more". As in "more rigid structure". Not "rigid structure".

2. Yes.
 

JESinstr

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Are you saying that when you start a turn to the right you lift the outside edge of the left foot?
Yes and also lift the outside edge (arch side) of the inside foot
 

JESinstr

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I think that is unnecessary to focus on the new outside ski.

If you only focus on tipping the new inside ski everything is cleaner and the new outside ski will get in the inside edge automatically
While I understand your point of view, it is the outside ski that is assigned the workload and most skiers think they are on a higher edge than they actually are. If you are using the inside ski to pull you into the turn, I think that is just a sign that you don't have total command of the outside ski. The inside leg plays a crucial role in the outside achieving strongly supported high edge angles by enabling advanced angulation. Back in the day, focusing on tipping the inside leg was called "hooking" and considered a cheat move to develop the turn.
 
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