Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

Chris V.

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JESinstr, try holding your inside foot close to your outside foot, and tip it really strongly, without causing the outside foot to tip along with it. It's really hard. That's the point.
 

François Pugh

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While I understand your point of view, it is the outside ski that is assigned the workload and most skiers think they are on a higher edge than they actually are. If you are using the inside ski to pull you into the turn, I think that is just a sign that you don't have total command of the outside ski. The inside leg plays a crucial role in the outside achieving strongly supported high edge angles by enabling advanced angulation. Back in the day, focusing on tipping the inside leg was called "hooking" and considered a cheat move to develop the turn.
I've seen this play before. The instruction isn't meant to make you actually use the inside ski to turn (like a white-pass turn). It's just to allow your subconscious mind to tip your outside ski without forcing it into having a big lead in leaning sooner and farther than the inside ski. It works for some folk. For the other few, it trips them up (like it did me the first time I tried it).
 

mdf

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I've seen this play before. The instruction isn't meant to make you actually use the inside ski to turn (like a white-pass turn). It's just to allow your subconscious mind to tip your outside ski without forcing it into having a big lead in leaning sooner and farther than the inside ski. It works for some folk. For the other few, it trips them up (like it did me the first time I tried it).
Yep, for most people paying attention to the inside ski auto-magically makes the outside ski do the right thing.
 

Henry

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Here's what happens...stand up. Raise one foot an inch off the floor. Invert the foot so the big toe edge is high, really high, and keep inverting (tipping) it so it gets higher. Your body will start to fall in that direction. You'll semi-automatically angulate and counter (to facilitate the angulation) in order to balance which then gives angles to the standing leg and thus puts the standing foot (ski) on edge. It doesn't work well if the lightened foot carries much weight, and it's a lot harder if the legs are more than a bit apart.
 

Scruffy

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Here's what happens...stand up. Raise one foot an inch off the floor. Invert the foot so the big toe edge is high, really high, and keep inverting (tipping) it so it gets higher. Your body will start to fall in that direction. You'll semi-automatically angulate and counter (to facilitate the angulation) in order to balance which then gives angles to the standing leg and thus puts the standing foot (ski) on edge. It doesn't work well if the lightened foot carries much weight, and it's a lot harder if the legs are more than a bit apart.

Yeah but the reason that works to angulate and counter your body is what's happing in the stance foot. The free foot in your scenario is displacing your COM so you fall in that direction. Your stance foot then pronates, your planter fascia tensions*, your stance foot everts, stance tibia rotates medially inward, your stance femur rotates laterally and hip opens to the outside. ( assumes a slightly bent knee and closed ankle - athletic stance )

Perform your same floor experiment, but this time cross the free leg in front of the stance leg so that your two knees are lined up one in front of the other. This will keep your COM midline.

Don't get me wrong. I love focusing in the inside foot too. But I think it helps to understand what's happing biomechanically.

ETA:
* The tensioning of the planter fascia is key to question of the foot pronating in the boot helping in skiing ( normal pronation as in gate cycle, not over pronation as in foot malady). All Fascia trains begin or terminate at the foot. I like to say begin, because our feet are sensory and control devices. The Superficial Back Line, the Superficial Front Line, the Deep Front Line, and the Lateral Line all begin at the foot. Proprioception in the foot and our fascia system control our muscular skeletal integrity and allow our bodies to prepare for and take on the the stress and tension loads during activities such as skiing.
There's way more to it than this obviously, but I have to run so... anyway food for thought.
 
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JESinstr

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Yep, for most people paying attention to the inside ski auto-magically makes the outside ski do the right thing.
Maybe that's why we see so many instances of tip diversion in advanced skiers. Are you advocating Tip diversion?
 
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JESinstr

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I've seen this play before. The instruction isn't meant to make you actually use the inside ski to turn (like a white-pass turn). It's just to allow your subconscious mind to tip your outside ski without forcing it into having a big lead in leaning sooner and farther than the inside ski. It works for some folk. For the other few, it trips them up (like it did me the first time I tried it).
I think shortening the inside leg is more of a priority than tipping it unless A-framing is an issue but then again, if you are releasing pressure by shortening, the only reason for A-framing is laziness.
 

JESinstr

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I doubt anyone in this thread is promoting tip diversion.
I agree so why promote a movement that could cause it?
I think this video by Paul Lorentz covers my point of view although I would use the word Mass vs Weight .

 
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Yep, for most people paying attention to the inside ski auto-magically makes the outside ski do the right thing.
Maybe that's why we see so many instances of tip diversion in advanced skiers. Are you advocating Tip diversion?
@JESinstr, @mdf's post does not conflict in any way with what Paul Lorenz is promoting in that video you just posted. He is demonstrating how softening or flexing the new inside leg will create weight transfer to the new outside ski and start the new turn. In other words, doing something with the new inside ski does make the outside ski do the right thing.

Paul begins by making turns with moderate edging, and points out that if the timing of the lightening of the inside ski is off there will be unwanted skidding. He says nothing about any resulting tip divergence. He describes how to get the timing right so that the resulting turns will travel in the direction the skis are pointed.

When he begins to show high performance carving, Paul's first turns exhibit a new inside ski tail lift.
Screen Shot 2022-09-23 at 12.46.09 PM.png

He talks about adjusting the timing to avoid the tail lift. But he doesn't say why. Then he goes on to demonstrate more carved turns which, with or without tail lift, are all advanced turns. There is no skidding or divergence in the ones in any of these turns.

And if you look closely to those turns at the very end of the video, you'll see at least one turn where both skis leave the snow, and at least one other where the new inside ski's tip lifts.
Screen Shot 2022-09-23 at 12.34.30 PM.png

Screen Shot 2022-09-23 at 12.37.59 PM.png

None of the variations in what leaves the snow at weight transfer diminishes the functional quality of these high performance turns. Being able to match any of these turns, even with their bits of ski lift, is an admirable accomplishment.

And they all begin with softening/flexing the new inside leg.
 
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mdf

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I agree so why promote a movement that could cause it?
I think this video by Paul Lorentz covers my point of view although I would use the word Mass vs Weight .

I'm not a fan of that video. The script implies that lightening the inside ski is all it takes.
Yet compare: there is clearly something causing his mass to go inside.

stance 1.png
stance 2.png


After all, the title is "How to transfer weight" not "You should transfer weight".
 
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True, Paul leaves a lot out as he emphasizes the new inside leg focus. He's choosing that focus for a reason. He's putting it center stage and shining a spotlight on it.
 

JESinstr

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@JESinstr, @mdf's post does not conflict in any way with what Paul Lorenz is promoting in that video you just posted. He is demonstrating how softening or flexing the new inside leg will create weight transfer to the new outside ski and start the new turn. In other words, doing something with the new inside ski does make the outside ski do the right thing.
LF, This sidebar started with
I think that is unnecessary to focus on the new outside ski.

If you only focus on tipping the new inside ski everything is cleaner and the new outside ski will get in the inside edge automatically
My comments have been within the context of responding to the above post. I apologize for any confusion

I'm not a fan of that video. The script implies that lightening the inside ski is all it takes.

After all, the title is "How to transfer weight" not "You should transfer weight".
Lightening the inside ski is just the beginning of a chain of events to direct pressure to the outside ski, more specifically the inside edge of the outside ski. One needs to understand that these chains of events begin under Gravity (hence the term "Weight") and finish under Centripetal force.

If you don't subscribe to PSIA fundamentals, that's ok. There are many ways to make it down the mountain.
 

Rod9301

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@JESinstr, @mdf's post does not conflict in any way with what Paul Lorenz is promoting in that video you just posted. He is demonstrating how softening or flexing the new inside leg will create weight transfer to the new outside ski and start the new turn. In other words, doing something with the new inside ski does make the outside ski do the right thing.

Paul begins by making turns with moderate edging, and points out that if the timing of the lightening of the inside ski is off there will be unwanted skidding. He says nothing about any resulting tip divergence. He describes how to get the timing right so that the resulting turns will travel in the direction the skis are pointed.

When he begins to show high performance carving, Paul's first turns exhibit a new inside ski tail lift.
View attachment 178866
He talks about adjusting the timing to avoid the tail lift. But he doesn't say why. Then he goes on to demonstrate more carved turns which, with or without tail lift, are all advanced turns. There is no skidding or divergence in the ones in any of these turns.

And if you look closely to those turns at the very end of the video, you'll see at least one turn where both skis leave the snow, and at least one other where the new inside ski's tip lifts.
View attachment 178864
View attachment 178865
None of the variations in what leaves the snow at weight transfer diminishes the functional quality of these high performance turns. Being able to match any of these turns, even with their bits of ski lift, is an admirable accomplishment.

And they all begin with softening/flexing the new inside leg.
Most wc skiers lift the tip of the ski in transitions.
Hh advocates this. I tried it and it seems a lot more natural than lifting the tail.
Still need to pull the foot back though
 

mdf

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LF, This sidebar started with

My comments have been within the context of responding to the above post. I apologize for any confusion


Lightening the inside ski is just the beginning of a chain of events to direct pressure to the outside ski, more specifically the inside edge of the outside ski. One needs to understand that these chains of events begin under Gravity (hence the term "Weight") and finish under Centripetal force.

If you don't subscribe to PSIA fundamentals, that's ok. There are many ways to make it down the mountain.
I like the skiing. It's just the description I don't like. I can't see how it would help someone who can't already do the movement.
 
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mdf

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This little difference of opinion is off-topic, of course. We are talking about tipping the inside ski without distinguising whether or not anything happens first inside either boot, vs the whole assemblege (foot+lower leg+boot+ski) tipping together.

I'm not sure what my opinion is on the orignial question. I'd have to ski while paying attention to that detail to find out.
 

Erik Timmerman

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This little difference of opinion is off-topic, of course. We are talking about tipping the inside ski without distinguising whether or not anything happens first inside either boot, vs the whole assemblege (foot+lower leg+boot+ski) tipping together.

I'm not sure what my opinion is on the orignial question. I'd have to ski while paying attention to that detail to find out.
I was about to post much the same. We are on page 6 so drift is expected if not required, but the original post was more about how to tip than any sequence of tipping. The talk of lightening and lifting skis made me think about how the movements related to skiing on one ski relate to manipulating the foot inside the boot. I’d bet that skiers who are adept at one-footed skiing are in the invert/evert the foot group.
 

JESinstr

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OK, I agree.
So here is a question: In @Kneale Brownson 's Video, is the observed raising of the toes a sign of pronation/supination, inversion/eversion or...... the beginnings of dorsiflexion?
 

markojp

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Maybe that's why we see so many instances of tip diversion in advanced skiers. Are you advocating Tip diversion?

Tip divergence..... IMHExperience, this has little to do with asking folks to tip the new inside foot, but anything can be coached and consumed poorly.
 

slidingmike

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As someone who has regrettably taken few lessons over my 35 years on skis (the last 18 of which have been on telemark gear), here's what I feel... As I transition, I feel the pressure on my old outside ski's inside edge moving forward, coming around the tips of my skis, and snapping to the inside edge of my new outside ski, and then moving back under my feet. This is the combination of dorsiflexion, tipping the feet (and then the knees, then the hips), and then subtly moving pressure slightly aft as I cross the fall line. With a telemark turn, pressure stays on both feet (big toe / little toe), and there's also a position shift to move the outside ski forward, with more active hip support (and awesome surfy feeling) but it's otherwise a similar feeling of the movement of pressure. I think in telemark boots, even the stiffest, there's probably a lot more foot mobility -- so the feet tipping (really, both) to initiate the turn (along with dorsiflexion) rings very true to my experience.
 
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