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Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

Yepow

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^^Good infor.
I'm wondering how many of Tom's readers are in plug boots that have been fitted with maximum precision.
So--I am a Tom reader, and my new boots are Head WCR 5s that were fit well by Lou. It's a much different fit, but that slop with my heels banging around in the old boot was pretty miserable. I find myself in a quite narrow plug boot, albeit a not very stiff one :)

We shall see how this goes this season!
 
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LiquidFeet

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So--I am a Tom reader, and my new boots are Head WCR 5s that were fit well by Lou. It's a much different fit, but that slop with my heels banging around in the old boot was pretty miserable. I find myself in a quite narrow plug boot, albeit a not very stiff one :)

We shall see how this goes this season!
Hey, Yepow, how was the skiing last season?
 

Yepow

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nothing on snow since all of my reports from April :) I've been working hard on body prep and indoor simulation with BPS daily since July however, and doing flexibility and balance work daily also! Got these new boots only a couple weeks ago, been in them a fair amount inside the house in the skis working on feeling feet, fore/aft, learning about phases of the turn...
 

Yepow

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@LiquidFeet : 2 things got me going actually hard on it this summer . 1) you had said "all sorts of things are possible over summer!" 2) I have been using almost as a mantra that "other people have learned how to do this, so it must be possible for me to learn also." Unencumbered by talent, I substitute effort!
 

Yepow

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twomartinis

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But best to read harb's book, and blog, he did a great job explaining.
Link please? (just making my way through this thread, something I've been thinking about lately)

I think I have mentioned this before, but imagine a world in which we ski on skis that have no bindings to hold us to the skis. You have maybe rubber mats or skateboard grip tape but that's it. Or maybe children's bindings set at 0.5. I think you could actually ski on that setup but only if your tipping came from the feet. If you moved your knee to tip the ski you'd just come flying off the ski. That is to say you could tilt the ski onto LTE by pressing the little toe into the ski/snow, but not by lifting the big toe. This idea has been a big breakthrough for me over the last 3 years or so. I think that it really helps with balance.
This description just makes sense to me :D
...and somehow made me think of the Medicus golf swing trainer - it's intentionally fragile to point out faults baked into the swing, which are normally masked by rigid connections.
 

breck

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This is such a good thread. I have been accumulating posts to react to, here we go.

Regarding the ankle roll, tipping or bottom of foot-initiated edging...
But it's apparent to me that it's the simplest and quickest way to pressure the edge you want pressured. If you don't pressure the soles of your feet, the only way to pressure the edge is to pressure the boot top, which requires large movements that take time to initiate and a bit of speed to balance.
Yep, nice drill to drive this home is how many edge changes in X meters/yards at the same speed? So much faster with the bottom up method.

The absolute very first drill I do every single day on the slopes is walking-speed turns initiated by pressuring the soles of my feet, first from side to side and then adding in a very slight rolling of the inside ski onto the front inside (of the turn) tip by lightening the heel. Stay upright, sink shins into the boot tongue. It results in very tight slow speed turns. Then I progress into more speed and more angulation, bringing knees and hips into play. It seems to work well for me, but if any pros have suggestions about what problems it might cause I'm all ears.
This is going to become a theme in this response; you are doing a micro-tele turn there when you 'lighten the heel'. Nice drill, too bad your bindings won't let you go to the obvious conclusion ;).

You are correct in being concerned about your warmup drill's impact, and I am an expert. Before you know it you will be calling all manner of human 'dude', probably smell a bit, but be good company and be an awesome skier.

Movements of the ankle are part of the motions for knee angulation. Rolling the ankle inside of a ski boot in isolation will do absolutely nothing. Ankle movements bring the knee in which levers on the boot which then levers on the ski which tips the ski. If anyone has any doubts, stand on your ski on the floor without ski boots, and see if you are able to tip the ski by rolling your ankles or actually any other movement for that matter.
I did this experiment, Crispi World Cups with race liners, and I felt I could bend the shell--but the cuff hinges are crap on them. Anyone with some plug boots try it? I have held some that I didn't think could be bent fore/aft much less side to side.

The high, stiff cuffs of ski boots do serve a function. Ordinarily, the forces generated in a ski turn should continue to be borne through the feet. However, skiing can generate forces that are stronger than ordinarily encountered in walking or running. Thus I would say that contact between the shins and cuffs can productively bear some fraction of the peak lateral and forward forces a skier experiences. It just shouldn't become a substitute for more natural processes. (Maybe most importantly, those stiff cuffs help us catch ourselves and recenter when we encounter rough spots or something unexpected happens.)
I free ski always in walk mode, mind you it is tele but I think maybe I have a different mechanism for the support under lower loads. Come race course time things get locked down but good and what you describe is exactly the reason--the forces are too much for my ankle to deal with and I need the juddering of a rutted course transferred to my shins and more power in holding the edge.

You don’t want slop in a boot. Modify whatever is needed to get there.
Au contraire mon ami, the cool kids do exactly that I am told. Lisa Ballard said that the racers heat foot molding can include an ace bandage around the ankle for room to increase fine edge control as we are discussing. They ski without the ace bandage. In a high G turn the edge is not being controlled by large muscles but instead by the ankle for fine adjustments. So this matters for more than just turn initiation apparently.

n order to "angulate at the knee" the foot must be tipped. To do that voluntarily is generally better than forcing it by muscles higher up in the chain.
subtalar joint.png
This just super makes sense from what my perceived experience is. One can try to drive that system from the top, with all sorts of leverage problems vs. driving from the bottom which puts direct muscle input where the forces are happening.

Probably the biggest WOW! I get from my upper intermediates and advanced clients is when I simply tell them to focus on lifting the edges of the skis (while remaining fore/aft center balanced). This directive inevitably sends the focus to the foot as the tipping initiator. As for my beginner students, this isn't an issue as this is how I teach them right from the get-go
I am embarrassed at how long it took me to learn tipping/ankle rolling and good on you for teaching it as core. It fixes so many problems for me, allow me to proclaim what it brought to my skiing.

The initiation of a properly tipped/ankle rolled turn has the least slip of other style turns in my turn vocabulary which is a superpower in difficult conditions. Those include:
  • Ice, like race course ice, is much more manageable with no slip turn initiation. It all falls apart above 13 degrees of edging I have read but it is nice to smoothly transition up to 13 degrees beyond which all the chattering/juddering happens when the turn is solidly set.
  • Crappy unskiable snow mostly amounts to snow that doesn't tolerate any sort of slip. Breakable crust, chicken heads and what not are all dangers if the ski needs to slip in the turn. If there is any slip then the sidewall is encountering snow/ice that the shovel didn't which makes all that so treacherous--the sidewall is getting considerable force from breaking crust or lopping chicken heads off. The footy turn, there I just gave it another name, keeps the shovel dealing with the crap up front like it is supposed to and keeps the side wall following cleared material.
  • The last difficult condition is getting older. Skidded turns take more energy, in telemark it is a huge difference--maybe in alpine it is less. I find myself defensive when skidding which is exhausting on groomers while a proper 'footy turn', I kinda like the sound of that, lines the skeleton up right with no defensive tensioning of muscles.
Again, thanks for such a wonderful topic, I have 5 pages of posts to get through yet so I apologize if later content invalidates the above.
 

razie

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In a high G turn the edge is not being controlled by large muscles but instead by the ankle for fine adjustments.
In a high G turn you're resisting the forces. There are techniques for changing the angle somewhat in the turn but by and large, under load, the edge is set and angles predetermined and leverage is on the cuff.

The feet inside the boots realistically have a stronger tipping effect when they're light, to create the angles before pressure comes.

Put another way, you can do two things to your skis: tip them or pressure them, but not at the same time :cool:
 
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Dave Marshak

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Put another way, you can do two things to your skis: tip them or pressure them, but not at the same time :cool:
I can tip my ski when I ski on one foot. (More correctly I could do that when I was younger, for those of you who know how I ski.) Why can’t I tip and pressure at the same time?

dm
 

Yo Momma

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Making turns on xc or leather tele equipment is a great way to focus in on what the feet do. Hop back into your alpine gear and you will be more solid than ever.
This is a key element for me while I'm learning to "activate" and manage proprioceptive forces. The older 22 Designs Hammerhead bindings allow adjustment in terms of varying degrees of heel lift. I haven't tried the newer versions. Adjusting up and down that ladder on Tele via Hammerheads, then going back to Alpine gear was a game changer for me. It awakened my perception around how my much less than perfect parts move together. I switch back to Tele and run through the heel retention adjustments every so often so I never forget how to "activate", with a heightened awareness of how the parts function together.

Nordic skiing, more so skate skiing helps but I've found Tele to be more enlightening as you can analyze the turn dynamics to a higher degree.

IMHO Every serious skier needs to take a few lessons and try Tele (especially modern Tele where dropping LOW is optional) as a training tool to wake up the awareness quotient and make Alpine more dynamic.

I did mount (and continue to successfully use) TeleBry's release mechanism to my Hammerheads for safety. Many moons ago during a two and a half wk trip to Grand Targhee, I had a long conversation over a few beers one night w/ the head engineer at the 22 Designs factory... essentially their garage back then in Driggs... great impromptu party!:golfclap: LOL... about the Hammerhead/Telebry release combo. They were VERY curious about my setup as at the time, they hadn't field tested it. I was the first they had spoken to in person, that had real world experience w/ that setup. We were in new territory on that one! Good conversations through my altitude and beer fog! :beercheer:
 
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markojp

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I can tip my ski when I ski on one foot. (More correctly I could do that when I was younger, for those of you who know how I ski.) Why can’t I tip and pressure at the same time?

dm

I think they're talking about GS turns in gates.
 
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LiquidFeet

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In a high G turn you're resisting the forces. There are techniques for changing the angle somewhat in the turn but by and large, under load, the edge is set and angles predetermined and leverage is on the cuff.
The feet inside the boots realistically have a stronger tipping effect when they're light, to create the angles beforepressure comes.
Put another way, you can do two things to your skis: tip them or pressure them, but not at the same time
I can tip my ski when I ski on one foot. (More correctly I could do that when I was younger, for those of you who know how I ski.) Why can’t I tip and pressure at the same time?
I think they're talking about GS turns in gates.
Razie and Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that when Razie says "pressure" he is referring to the part of the turn where the skis are under maximum load. And he's talking about high G turns. @markojp is referring to the fact that the turns Razie usually talks about are turns appropriate for racers.

So this disagreement hinges on whether or not one can/should tip the skis onto a higher edge angle at the point of maximum pressure in the turn by tipping the feet farther inside the boots. I'm assuming this means both feet, so the focus is on everting one foot and inverting the other at or around apex.

@razie is saying nope, you've already done your ankle-tipping back when the skis were light. Now you're busy resisting the forces and the ankles need to stay stable.

@Dave Marshak is saying sure you can ankle-tip inside the boot to increase edge angle at the point of maximum pressure.

Razie and Dave, have I got that right? Marko, you've done your time in gates. Thoughts? Anybody else?
 
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Dave Marshak

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I think they're talking about GS turns in gates.
That only confirms my point. If you don’t have the ability to tip your ski you don’t have control of it. GS requires more control of your line than any recreational carving and all carved turns are GS turns. To say you can’t edge ( tip) and pressure is like saying you can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

dm
 

razie

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That only confirms my point. If you don’t have the ability to tip your ski you don’t have control of it. GS requires more control of your line than any recreational carving and all carved turns are GS turns. To say you can’t edge ( tip) and pressure is like saying you can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

dm
next time you're pulling 3g in a hip-to-snow GS turn at the apex, try tipping the outside boot with subtle ankle movements. let us know how that works out.
 

Tony S

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Some data from carv:

Suggests that increasing edge angle while under load is not really a thing (at least for Ted :) ).

Tedblog-edgeangle.jpg



Tedblog-osp.jpg
This is very cool. It would be good to have a mark for where the fall line was. Can we assume that is 50%?

The pressure curve is exactly what I would expect. The angle curve is interesting in that it is pretty early. I wish I knew what I would have said if someone had asked me about this before seeing the graph. Hmmm.
 

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This is very cool. It would be good to have a mark for where the fall line was. Can we assume that is 50%?

The pressure curve is exactly what I would expect. The angle curve is interesting in that it is pretty early. I wish I knew what I would have said if someone had asked me about this before seeing the graph. Hmmm.
I do not know how these plots are made -- is the X axis time or is it related to the angle of the skis vs. the fall line (ie 50% would be straight down the hill)? I suspect it is the latter.
 
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