Tom Gellie's Webinars are Well Worth It IMO

[Tim Hodgson]

An elemental systematic step-by-step approach is what I find so appealing to the Tom Gellie method.
And also likely because his instruction is a single voice going into the most efficient physical movements in such depth that it seems less fuzzy to me than many different voices each blindly but correctly describing their observed/preferred but different part of the "elephant's anatomy" when performing a movement analysis on a skier's skiing.

 

[Steve]

@bbinder A Dorian is a G Major scale, just starting on the A. All it is is a minor scale. Slightly different than an A Minor scale due to one note (in A Minor there's an F and in A Dorian there's an F#.)

Doesn't really take a ton of learning to understand chord scales, and once you know what scale fits on a chord the rest is easy. Just play the chord tones (1,3,5,7) and the notes in between are usually from the key you're in.

 

[Uke]

Interesting discussion.

20 hours of practice will get you to the point of being able to strum 'cowboy chords' as you sing your favorite song. No theory needed. If you progress much beyond that a little theory begins to expose itself and you can use it or not. You also begin to develop greater technical expertise. You may decide to write songs and study theory to help your writing. You may devote your time to becoming technically excellent. There are many paths you can take in music just as in skiing.

uke

 

[bbinder]

@bbinder A Dorian is a G Major scale, just starting on the A. All it is is a minor scale. Slightly different than an A Minor scale due to one note (in A Minor there's an F and in A Dorian there's an F#.)

Doesn't really take a ton of learning to understand chord scales, and once you know what scale fits on a chord the rest is easy. Just play the chord tones (1,3,5,7) and the notes in between are usually from the key you're in.

Doesn't take a ton of learning, but (like skiing) it takes motivation and discipline to sit down and actually do it. I have a couple of books on theory and they lay it out in an organized way. I just need to concentrate do some memorization (even if only the cycle of fifths). All or most of my concentration has been going towards skiing - I just need to get out there and actually ski...

 

[Noodler]

Doesn't take a ton of learning, but (like skiing) it takes motivation and discipline to sit down and actually do it. I have a couple of books on theory and they lay it out in an organized way. I just need to concentrate do some memorization (even if only the cycle of fifths). All or most of my concentration has been going towards skiing - I just need to get out there and actually ski...

Exactly. I've been playing guitar since I was 16, but I've never put in the effort anywhere near what I've done for golf and skiing. I figure when my body is no longer able to play golf or ski I'll have plenty of time to sit back down with all of my guitars. That's what I see my dad doing in his retirement (although he's still able to play golf 5 days/week).

 

[Chris V.]

"Steer your skis" I have never really understood what this means

Amen.

 

[bbinder]

Back to TG and a question. Maybe a concern, really. I think that most of my skiing in the past has involved opening and closing my ankle to change where my center of mass is in a fore/aft direction. If I am understanding TG correctly he is advocating keeping the ankle engaged/flexed and having the body rock forward and back over the neutral point of the ski. I was playing with this a bit the other day and noted that moving in this way did give me a better feel for the snow and a better idea on which part of the (tip vs tail) was engaging more. I did feel more stable throughout the turn. But skiing in this way was tiring on my ankles! Is this just me or is this just how it feels when someone is trying to exaggerate the motion to dial it in? Does the tiring feeling get less as I condition my body to ski in this manner? My goal is to ski effectively, but I also want efficiency - in this case I am defining efficiency as less tiring/less stress on my aging joints and muscles.

 

[Steve]

Hey bb. I haven’t experienced this at all. I can’t say what muscles I’m using but I almost allow the weight shift to happen

I do actively raise my toes/forefeet but the ankles are not jamming into the cuffs of my boots, I’m just staying forward towards the cuffs of my boots.

i’m kind of pulling myself forward as I get backside heavy. There is core involvement as I’m hinging at the hips not at the waist, or at least trying to. Flexing forward.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...If I am understanding TG correctly he is advocating keeping the ankle engaged/flexed.
...I was playing with this a bit the other day and noted that moving in this way did give me a better feel for the snow and a better idea on which part of the (tip vs tail) was engaging more.
....skiing in this way was tiring on my ankles! Is this just me or is this just how it feels when someone is trying to exaggerate the motion to dial it in? Does the tiring feeling get less as I condition my body to ski in this manner? ....

The muscle that holds the ankle "closed" is the tibialis anterior. Sure it will get tired if you keep it flexed continually to maintain tongue-shin contact. And it may get sore at first if the unfamiliar level of attention is a dramatic change. That's why you want the boot tongue to offer some support; you can lean on it for relief. Assumed when I write this is that the heel is solidly planted on the boot sole and the body weight is being supported under the tibia.

If you hold the dorsiflexion pretty much constant, the muscle gets used to it. That sensation is one of the things I miss the most when I put my boots away in the spring.

I hope other skiers who ski this way (not everyone here does) also respond.

With the ankle closed, you can move your CoM fore-aft by opening and closing the knees and/or hips. Using two joints instead of three increases control. There will be less moving joints where looseness and imprecision can invade your movement pattern.

Tom talks a lot about reducing the knee involvement as well while focusing on using the hip joint. Using primarily one joint, the hip, to manipulate the CoM to BoS relationship will create a bigger lever when the skier wants to direct pressure fore-aft under the ski. Using the knee will create a shorter lever.

I haven't been on snow yet this season to play around with the hip focus. My go-to for years has been the knees, with ankles kept closed pretty much constantly. I'm looking forward to messing around with this hip business when I get on snow.

Exceptions of course prove the rule.

 

[Mike King]

Back to TG and a question. Maybe a concern, really. I think that most of my skiing in the past has involved opening and closing my ankle to change where my center of mass is in a fore/aft direction. If I am understanding TG correctly he is advocating keeping the ankle engaged/flexed and having the body rock forward and back over the neutral point of the ski. I was playing with this a bit the other day and noted that moving in this way did give me a better feel for the snow and a better idea on which part of the (tip vs tail) was engaging more. I did feel more stable throughout the turn. But skiing in this way was tiring on my ankles! Is this just me or is this just how it feels when someone is trying to exaggerate the motion to dial it in? Does the tiring feeling get less as I condition my body to ski in this manner? My goal is to ski effectively, but I also want efficiency - in this case I am defining efficiency as less tiring/less stress on my aging joints and muscles.

Bob, one of the things a demo team relayed to me is that as we age, we lose foot strength. This is exacerbated by the shoes we wear. One of Tom’s fundamentals is that the foot is the foundation of skiing. So doing work to build strength in your foot and ankle can not only help your efficiency, it cand help your effectiveness.

so look to some exercises to help build the arches of the foot. I believe Tom had some of these in the public domain — there are more specific ones on his pay site. And also focus on strengthening tibialis anterior.

realize thatusing the ankle as a type1 lever moves the effort elsewhere— to the quads calf hamstrings, etc.

 

[bbinder]

Thanks for the responses. I am subscribed, so I can see all of the videos. Practicing the arch exercises is on my to-do list. When I was playing with this, I was actively dorso-flexing the ankle. I kept mild tongue contact with my shin, but was consciously not jamming my shin against the tongue; and yes, I was keeping my heel planted the entire time. The internal cue of keeping the ankle flexed was kind of nice in that it reminded my whole body to stay more 'active.' I like the idea that it might become less tiresome the more that I do it (this was actually my assumption - I was curious about the point of view of others).

One interesting thing is that I had a little Aha moment (the feeling, not the musical group)(although one of the best music videos of all time IMHO): I have tendency to just fall sometimes. The situation is always the same: I am skiing along and having a grand old time, I am changing edges to initiate a new turn, and even though I 'think' that edge change has occurred, my new outside ski goes shooting out from under me and down I go. I sort of know what is happening, but I never can verbalize it or correct it consistently. Playing with TGs stuff (toppling, front side heavy to engage tips), I 'think' that my commitment to the new turn has never been as complete as it should be. We will see what happens as the season progresses.

 

[Noodler]

The tibialis anterior is the dorsiflexion muscle as @LiquidFeet noted, but as I've stated previously, this muscle is not going to be strong enough to get us forward when dealing with our body weight and the forces of skiing. It won't matter how much you try to strengthen it, it won't be up to the task all alone. Dorsiflexion should be combined with foot pullback via a strong hamstring contraction and some glute involvement. This movement changes the position of your feet in relation to the hips and is the most efficient way to lever the front cuff of your boot and not just get forward, but truly be forward to deal with the skiing turn forces and ensure that the ski forebody is engaging in the turns.

@bbinder - if you feel yourself using strong plantar flexing in your skiing, then that's a clue that you are not managing the fore/aft changes correctly. Pressuring the tails of the skis should come from changing the position of your feet in relation to your hips (allowing the feet to slide forward), not by pushing down on the bottom of the boot with our toes in order to open the ankle and pressure the rear cuff of the boot. That's a sure fire way to get tired really fast.

I've noted previously that purposely allowing your weight to be fully backside heavy (on your tails only) as TG advocates, is an advanced skiing technique IMHO. Most skiers will either lack the strength or the skills to get forward (or at least to center) quick enough for the new turn. You might get away with this at slower skiing speeds, but even a moderate blue run will probably tax most skiers' ability to manage the forces involved. I'm a fairly high level skier, not the greatest mind you, but I do not have the strength-to-weight ratio I need to be able to allow the backside heavy turn finish to work for me 100% of the time. There will always be the turn or two, where I just can't get back to center fast enough and I end up traversing across the slope until I can get there. I don't like to ski like that. My preference is to lay down perfectly shaped carved turns all of the same size using the same tempo. On flatter slopes I can play around with backside heavy and make it work, but then I feel an obvious "stalling" of the ski moving through the turn that happens in transition as I move between backside heavy to frontside heavy. I guess this is my really long-winded way of saying that for most skiers I recommend being able to "own" the front of your skis at all times and if you feel the tails losing grip because you're too far forward, then certainly bring your stance back to more of a centered approach.

 

[LiquidFeet]

No comment, just putting this here to see what people might say.

 

[Steve]

I disagree a little with @Noodler although I do agree that the hamstrings are more crucial to the movement than the TA.

Where I disagree is that it's such an advanced movement. I'm nowhere near as advanced a skier as he is, but I have no problem doing this. Am I making carved, powerful turns - no. But on moderately steep terrain I can make short brushed carves in a consistent corridor ending backside heavy. I have lots of issues (not enough angulation early enough after toppling being a big one) but the TG fore/aft approach has triggered a breakthrough in my skiing. Do I always get centered or forward soon enough? No. But the alternative to not using backside heavy was even worse, more tail skidding and bracing against my equipment at the end of the turn.

At my level it is better to be a little back at the start of some turns, than too forward at release on all of them. Getting my tips hung up in soft snow, feeling my tails skidding out, etc.

 

[Noodler]

I disagree a little with @Noodler although I do agree that the hamstrings are more crucial to the movement than the TA.

Where I disagree is that it's such an advanced movement. I'm nowhere near as advanced a skier as he is, but I have no problem doing this. Am I making carved, powerful turns - no. But on moderately steep terrain I can make short brushed carves in a consistent corridor ending backside heavy. I have lots of issues (not enough angulation early enough after toppling being a big one) but the TG fore/aft approach has triggered a breakthrough in my skiing. Do I always get centered or forward soon enough? No. But the alternative to not using backside heavy was even worse, more tail skidding and bracing against my equipment at the end of the turn.

At my level it is better to be a little back at the start of some turns, than two forward at release on all of them. Getting my tips hung up in soft snow, feeling my tails skidding out, etc.

I think we're in agreement actually; that for higher energy skiing, this approach is tough to get right without the strength and the skills.

And this reminds me, review your PM about the fore/aft stance alignment. I have the sneakin' suspicion...

 

[Steve]

I still haven't done that, carrying skis and boots down to the basement where there's a mirror has held me back. Plus I fell down my stairs on Saturday and have a badly bruised tailbone. I will do it though.

 

[geepers]

Back to TG and a question. Maybe a concern, really. I think that most of my skiing in the past has involved opening and closing my ankle to change where my center of mass is in a fore/aft direction. If I am understanding TG correctly he is advocating keeping the ankle engaged/flexed and having the body rock forward and back over the neutral point of the ski. I was playing with this a bit the other day and noted that moving in this way did give me a better feel for the snow and a better idea on which part of the (tip vs tail) was engaging more. I did feel more stable throughout the turn. But skiing in this way was tiring on my ankles! Is this just me or is this just how it feels when someone is trying to exaggerate the motion to dial it in? Does the tiring feeling get less as I condition my body to ski in this manner? My goal is to ski effectively, but I also want efficiency - in this case I am defining efficiency as less tiring/less stress on my aging joints and muscles.

I have a different take from Tom's vids on this frontside / backside heavy. I am not at all thinking "body rock forward and back".

For frontside heavy I keep the ankle, knee and hip flex more or less constant then use the ankle as a type 2 lever with the ball of the foot as fulcrum and the calf muscle doing the bit of lifting. The body starts to tilt forward however my focus is to stop my heels from moving any further away from the bck of my head (Tom's cue) and the I'm attempting to pull the tails of the ski up using the muscle chain up the back of the legs and body. There's minimal TA involvement and I'm in no way resting on the tongue of the boots. Nor are the heels anchored to ground.

I believe Tom demos this in Mastering the Short Turn - Fore and Aft Lesson 1 in the ski boot drill 'Exercise in initiating frontside heavy" at 13:50. Note the point he makes at 14:38 "...if I move my head forward, and my upper body, I want my heel to feel like it lifts at the same rate". And indeed as he tilts forward his heels lift.

When it comes time to go neutral then all I need to do is relax the calf muscles. There's no delay which I imagine there would be if I needed to move mass away from resting on the front of the boot.

For backside heavy I think of settling into the heel and in this case make use of the TA to lighten the toes. By this point in the turn I'm trying to ensure the feet keep coming through and the pressure is being absorbed by flexing, especially at the knees. I'm pulling the feet through and the thought (Tom's cue again) is to pull the ski tips to the nose. The pulling happens with the muscles up the front of the body including hip flexors and abs. Will specifically make the point that this is NOT hanging backseat on the quads - there's no big quad effort. It's an attempt to pull the tips of the ski up as a way to lock the tails down. There's only a certain amount of the day I can ski with that effort - the rest of the time I tend to just settle into the heel, using the TA to lighten the toes. (Kind of a backside heavy lite. ) In any event the TA is a necessary part of maintaining ankle tension - if you let it go you'll notice very quickly!

Tom has made a new vid specifically about backside heavy and relevant dryland exercises.

Now I may have completely the wrong idea on frontside and backside heavy however it works for me.

I'd also repeat that whilst fore/aft adjustment is important of all types of turns what is described above is most apt for short turns where there is redirection of the ski at the top of the turn. That is, not carving turns. Indeed the whole point of frontside heavy is to lighten the tails so they can displace.

 

[Mike King]

My own personal experience is that effectively using frontside/backside heavy requires a lot of things to be right. In my own skiing, what allowed me to finally access the tail of the ski was a couple of things. First, it was getting the boot setup right. I needed less forward lean and a gas pedal on the boot. Second, it was about rotational alignment. When Ann Schorling gave me permission to allow the hip to move in the turn, all of a sudden I was able to feel connected to the outside foot. That gave me the ability to move forward and aft on that ski.

On Friday, I had another session with my coach. I actually scored a 147 on Carv with a perfect 100 on the balance metric, and measure of both using the tip and tail of the ski as well as the roll of the foot into the new turn. However, I've had issues with too much tip lead, particularly on the right footed turn, and that was leading to some issues in correctly accessing angulation. So, off we went to work on getting the tip lead and excessive counter out of my turns.

So much has been said about separation. I think I took separation way too far. I no longer like the term, as when I think I'm getting the skis to perform, that is when there is rotational alignment in my body, I don't feel separation between the upper and lower body; I feel connection. There's a strong pull between my hip and my lower leg. I'm driving the leg around my body; and it comes back under me.

As I've been learning this new position on the skis, my balance and edging scores dropped (an objective measure of ski performance). But they've started to recover. Today, my best run scored 144. Hopefully that's not because I reverted to my old movement pattern -- I don't think I did, but I don't have video to assess it.

Why this story? Because managing fore/aft pressure is a skill to be acquired and used at every level of skiing, from the beginner to the expert. As we learn new motor patterns to access new levels of skill, some of our other skills may be impacted. We need to go back and work on those. Improvement is not linear -- a change in performance on one skill may very well diminish performance on another. So realize that all of the skills are applicable at each level, but moving to more advanced levels will require revisiting skills that once had greater levels of performance.

Mike

 

[Noodler]

My own personal experience is that effectively using frontside/backside heavy requires a lot of things to be right. In my own skiing, what allowed me to finally access the tail of the ski was a couple of things. First, it was getting the boot setup right. I needed less forward lean and a gas pedal on the boot. Second, it was about rotational alignment. When Ann Schorling gave me permission to allow the hip to move in the turn, all of a sudden I was able to feel connected to the outside foot. That gave me the ability to move forward and aft on that ski.

On Friday, I had another session with my coach. I actually scored a 147 on Carv with a perfect 100 on the balance metric, and measure of both using the tip and tail of the ski as well as the roll of the foot into the new turn. However, I've had issues with too much tip lead, particularly on the right footed turn, and that was leading to some issues in correctly accessing angulation. So, off we went to work on getting the tip lead and excessive counter out of my turns.

So much has been said about separation. I think I took separation way too far. I no longer like the term, as when I think I'm getting the skis to perform, that is when there is rotational alignment in my body, I don't feel separation between the upper and lower body; I feel connection. There's a strong pull between my hip and my lower leg. I'm driving the leg around my body; and it comes back under me.

As I've been learning this new position on the skis, my balance and edging scores dropped (an objective measure of ski performance). But they've started to recover. Today, my best run scored 144. Hopefully that's not because I reverted to my old movement pattern -- I don't think I did, but I don't have video to assess it.

Why this story? Because managing fore/aft pressure is a skill to be acquired and used at every level of skiing, from the beginner to the expert. As we learn new motor patterns to access new levels of skill, some of our other skills may be impacted. We need to go back and work on those. Improvement is not linear -- a change in performance on one skill may very well diminish performance on another. So realize that all of the skills are applicable at each level, but moving to more advanced levels will require revisiting skills that once had greater levels of performance.

Mike

Love it. I need to find my way to Aspen. Too bad Covid killed The Gathering this season...

 

[Steve]

btw I sent Gellie a video of my skiing from last week and he said "Finish of turns is super. I would talk about turn initiation with you." So it's working, a work in progress, but working.