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geepers

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One interesting thing is that I had a little Aha moment (the feeling, not the musical group)(although one of the best music videos of all time IMHO): I have tendency to just fall sometimes. The situation is always the same: I am skiing along and having a grand old time, I am changing edges to initiate a new turn, and even though I 'think' that edge change has occurred, my new outside ski goes shooting out from under me and down I go. I sort of know what is happening, but I never can verbalize it or correct it consistently. Playing with TGs stuff (toppling, front side heavy to engage tips), I 'think' that my commitment to the new turn has never been as complete as it should be. We will see what happens as the season progresses.

Is this happening top the turn? Are you expecting the ski to come around but it just tracks straight on? Or elsewhere?
 

bbinder

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Is this happening top the turn? Are you expecting the ski to come around but it just tracks straight on? Or elsewhere?
Yes, happens at the top of the turn. Obviously doesn't happen all the time (or I would never make a turn...). And I figure that my ski tip is not engaging. But for the first time I (think) I understand what physical cue to look for to help me avoid this.
 

Steve

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Doesn't sound like the tip, it sounds like the new outside ski's edge isn't engaged. Not sharp, underedged, too little pressure. If you're heavy on the old outside ski and then change edges the new outside ski might not engage. I find backside heavy helps me to be more forward after I change edges. I move forward, instead of already being forward and have nowhere to go.

Ski slipping out sideways, too inside.
 

bbinder

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@geepers and @Noodler: I probably did not articulate very well, because I don't disagree with anything that you are saying. When I was playing with this concept, I was concentrating on keeping my feet in constant mild flexion (i.e., not changing the angle of my ankle joint) throughout the turn in order to see if I could produce the sensation of foreside heavy/neutral/backside heavy the way TG was describing it. So I was looking to see which part of my foot (under mets/under arch/under front of heel) would be feeling pressure at different parts of the turn. As I think about it, my feet and ankle muscles alone (including anterior tibialis) could not have had a major effect in shifting weight. I was not paying attention to which muscle groups were effecting the action - I will have to pay attention to this the next time I am on the snow. I am sure that my calves, quads, hamstrings, core were doing more work than I articulated earlier. My ankle flexors got really tired because of the constant flexion, and I was questioning whether this is normal.

I think that I have my answer, and everyone's input is helpful and giving me additional food for thought.

@Noodler, I totally agree with what you are saying about foot pullback. The task for me is finding the internal and external cues that will give me the feedback I need. As for being totally tail heavy being an advanced tactic, it does make sense - I have only been skiing on very moderate pitches and at very moderate speed... Probably when I feel like I am backside heavy, my COM is probably barely back of the center of the ski. It feels like I am wayyy back, but I am sure that I am not. I am sure that my ski tips don't look like they are even trying to come off the snow.
 

Steve

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It's taken me a couple of dozen mornings on snow for the frontside heavy/backside heavy concept to start to work well. At first it had some benefits, so I kept going, but after all these days it's settling in.
 

Steve

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And although I'm not skiing anything really steep, when Smith Walton is icy, it's steep enough to have challenged my fore/aft for years. Moving to my heels, while staying forward has made it easier to ski. The tails don't skid out. Simple. Even perfectly centered, if you're pivoting on an icy slope your tails are going to wash out. If you have your tails engaged, they keep tracking. I'm not saying carving, but tracking.
 

bbinder

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Doesn't sound like the tip, it sounds like the new outside ski's edge isn't engaged. Not sharp, underedged, too little pressure. If you're heavy on the old outside ski and then change edges the new outside ski might not engage. I find backside heavy helps me to be more forward after I change edges. I move forward, instead of already being forward and have nowhere to go.

Ski slipping out sideways, too inside.
Yes! (or as TG says: yes, yes yes!) I think that this is exactly what is happening. For a long time, I have been a believer in tipping the new inside ski to the little toe edge to initiate the turn. The problem is that if I am lazy and my weight is not forward enough, then my new outside edge does not engage and I go flying the wrong way. Concentrating on being backside heavy at the end of the turn may give me the cue I need to make sure that I get front side heavy at the beginning of the turn (and thus have pressure on the tips). In my limited time playing with this, it seems to make sense. Obviously, there is a lot more stuff to play with to fully understand and integrate this. And I'll have to see how this works in bumps...
 

Steve

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Another thing is the classic Lito description. Shift your weight to the new outside ski, then change edges. Feel the LTE of the inside ski engage then roll it over, early pressure.

Like you I've played with focusing on the new inside ski, I like it. White passy. Valuable skill, but no longer do I look at it as a go to move. I need to get on that new outside ski early, so I can ease off it early.

Years of late pressure build up on the outside ski, followed by bracing against it and building up more pressure at the bottom of the turn, are being eradicated by using the backside/frontside approach.

Soften up the bottom of the turns, used to be my motto. But I couldn't do it well.
 

JESinstr

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No comment, just putting this here to see what people might say.

Not sayin nothing. Just observin....


1610326469805.png
 
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Mike King

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@bbinder, a couple of things to consider.

  1. One possibility is not that you haven't changed edges, but rather that you are on the new inside ski and the new outside ski is weighted less than the new inside ski. So, the skis basically put you in the splits. This would be consistent with changing edges by moving you body inside the turn laterally, often with an extension of the old inside leg to push you up and over, but not transferring weight to the new outside ski. It might be thought of as bracing against gravity rather than against perceived gravity -- the forces of the turn.
  2. A second possibility is again that you are on the inside foot, but trying to push the outside foot to an edge. But because there is little pressure on it, the inside foot is dictating the turn and the outside foot is running away from you.
One thing that might help is to focus on the edging movements. Try to think of being in a more flexed position at the end of your turn. Then to start the new turn, tip the knees down the hill. Tipping the knees will tip the lower leg, which will change the edges. And by tipping the knees, you will create a high enough edge angle to accept pressure early in the turn.

One way to build this awareness and capability to tip the knees is through skating. Find a flat spot, or even slightly uphill spot. Roll the knee inside and then push off of the resulting edge. Land on the outside edge of the other ski, and as you glide, roll the knee up and over and inside to create a platform that you can then push off of the other ski.

You can take this into your turns -- skate from turn to turn, tipping that new outside ski from the little toe side over to the big toe side and ride the edge around the turn. You can even keep that inside ski off of the snow.

This should help with your alignment to the outside ski. And it won't be possible, if the knee is rolling down the hill into the new turn, for the ski to run away from you.

Mike
 

JESinstr

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So why are we looking at a pic grabbed off Heluva's YT channel?
I don't know @LiquidFeet started it LOL!

She threw out that video and asked for observations. My observation was when the most radical amount of activity was initiated (heel lifts) it ended with a return to a centered stance baseline.

The other thing to observe is that the skier appears to be forward but is actually balanced over the center of shape with his COM passing through the center of the foot. IMO, the beauty of ski design and boot functionality is that, through the proper implementation of the flex complex (ankles, knees, hips), one can be balanced over the center of shape and yet affect the center of the ski without sending mass to the fore.
 

bbinder

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@bbinder, a couple of things to consider.

  1. One possibility is not that you haven't changed edges, but rather that you are on the new inside ski and the new outside ski is weighted less than the new inside ski. So, the skis basically put you in the splits. This would be consistent with changing edges by moving you body inside the turn laterally, often with an extension of the old inside leg to push you up and over, but not transferring weight to the new outside ski. It might be thought of as bracing against gravity rather than against perceived gravity -- the forces of the turn.
  2. A second possibility is again that you are on the inside foot, but trying to push the outside foot to an edge. But because there is little pressure on it, the inside foot is dictating the turn and the outside foot is running away from you.
One thing that might help is to focus on the edging movements. Try to think of being in a more flexed position at the end of your turn. Then to start the new turn, tip the knees down the hill. Tipping the knees will tip the lower leg, which will change the edges. And by tipping the knees, you will create a high enough edge angle to accept pressure early in the turn.

One way to build this awareness and capability to tip the knees is through skating. Find a flat spot, or even slightly uphill spot. Roll the knee inside and then push off of the resulting edge. Land on the outside edge of the other ski, and as you glide, roll the knee up and over and inside to create a platform that you can then push off of the other ski.

You can take this into your turns -- skate from turn to turn, tipping that new outside ski from the little toe side over to the big toe side and ride the edge around the turn. You can even keep that inside ski off of the snow.

This should help with your alignment to the outside ski. And it won't be possible, if the knee is rolling down the hill into the new turn, for the ski to run away from you.

Mike
Good points. I do end my turns being more flexed than I am at the apex, and I try to consciously flex to release to try and eliminate any ‘up’ motion in transition. Either of the options that you offer for what is happening may be true... I do think about my knees tipping one way or the other, but try to initiate the tipping with my feet. I am so lazy that if I think about tipping my knees alone, my feet will probably try to stay flat.
 
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Mike King

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Good points. I do end my turns being more flexed than I am at the apex, and I try to consciously flex to release to try and eliminate any ‘up’ motion in transition. Either of the options that you offer for what is happening may be true... I do think about my knees tipping one way or the other, but try to initiate the tipping with my feet. I am so lazy that if I think about tipping my knees alone, my feet will probably try to stay flat.
It's pretty hard to diagnose what might be going on without some video. Perhaps Marcia might take a bit? We can give you a few things that would be more specific and, possibly, helpful.

While tipping the foot is important, the amount of edge you can create with foot tipping is pretty minimal. If you are going to create early edge, then rolling the knees downhill is going to be critical.

And if you are inclining and winding up on the inside foot in the turn, then I'd suggest forgetting about flex to release for know. Instead focus on the tipping movements and move with the ski.

In the alternative, you can come to Aspen and Weems can sort it out for you!

Mike
 

geepers

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No comment, just putting this here to see what people might say.

There's a point Tom Gellie makes with front-/back-side heavy which is a feeing of direct connection of the movement of mass to the ski.

We can see this most clearly when heluva leans forward at 0:23 - there's a large movement before the skis begin to unload the tails. If the ankle/knees/hips flex and held constant then only a small movement is required. It's similar with the move back although less apparent as the ski boot does not allow us to see how much tension he's holding in his ankles.

Using primarily one joint, the hip, to manipulate the CoM to BoS relationship will create a bigger lever when the skier wants to direct pressure fore-aft under the ski. Using the knee will create a shorter lever.

I haven't been on snow yet this season to play around with the hip focus. My go-to for years has been the knees, with ankles kept closed pretty much constantly. I'm looking forward to messing around with this hip business when I get on snow.

Liquidfeet, I'm somewhat puzzled on this hip focus in relation to fore/aft for swing short turns. Again, emphasizing the importance of the ankle is this segment from the publicly available promo vid. In this drill Tom is getting the student to tip his whole body forward as one unit. If wearing skis he'd be putting immediate pressure on the front of the skis.

IIRC the hip opening was to do with driving the hips forward and down on the downhill side of the bump when wedging - turning in the vertical - in the bumps.
 

razie

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The tibialis anterior is the dorsiflexion muscle as @LiquidFeet noted, but as I've stated previously, this muscle is not going to be strong enough to get us forward when dealing with our body weight and the forces of skiing. It won't matter how much you try to strengthen it, it won't be up to the task all alone. Dorsiflexion should be combined with foot pullback via a strong hamstring contraction and some glute involvement. This movement changes the position of your feet in relation to the hips and is the most efficient way to lever the front cuff of your boot and not just get forward, but truly be forward to deal with the skiing turn forces and ensure that the ski forebody is engaging in the turns.

Don't overthink it :geek: it leads to loss of fun! Just keep the heels back :ogcool: a lot :ogbiggrin:
 

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