Tom Gellie's Webinars are Well Worth It IMO

[Mike King]

It was my understanding from Tom's videos that moving pressure fore-aft through the turn allows the light part of the ski to be displaced. Such displacement does not always result from active pivoting.

That's my understanding. The displacement of the tail from the path of the tip is the result of physics, not any rotary input from the skier. Of course, rotary input can increase the effect.

Tom Gellie has not explained this non-pivoted displacement in the videos I've so far watched, and I've found that disappointing. Where is his talk about platform angle? He needs to address that, and I hope he does but that I have simply not watched the appropriate video yet.

Have you watched this video? https://video.bigpictureskiing.com/programs/collection-aczdtb8bkk8?cid=873369
or this one? https://video.bigpictureskiing.com/programs/img_0686mp4-ede785

Such displacement, either from a platform angle greater than 90º or from active pivoting, does not happen in an arc-to-arc carved turn. My carving is at the stage where I feel no need to move fore-aft at all. I stay centered and the skis do their thing.

I think Tom would likely say that your carving is the result of your fore/aft position...

@Noodler, it's good to know there's more advanced carving ahead of me, where moving fore-aft enhances something about the turn without losing the carve. How does this movement enhance the ski performance, or the turn shape, specifically? Do you know what to look for? Tom doesn't explain this in the videos I've watched - as yet.

 

[Mike King]

Mike, what I've digested from D-team members about a forward pivot point is that they see it correlated with a tail push. I've heard one say that the skier with a forward pivot point can be either aft or forward, but not necessarily centered.

This is a common turn mechanic -- move forward, get the tails to start sliding in a wider path than the tips, move aft, then push the skis. Used by many many recreational skiers and a good number of ski instructors,

But that doesn't need to be the result of manipulating pressure along the length of the ski. To effectively use fore/aft pressure management to achieve higher degrees of ski performance, you first need to learn how to move the center of mass with the path of the skis. So,

It needs to be said that active management in varying your fore/aft pressure through the lifecycle of the turn is an ADVANCED technique. I would not advise that any skier focus on this as a goal when you're learning high performance carving. It's hard enough for most skiers to just stay centered throughout the turn. The extra performance available from actively modifying fore/aft pressure at different stages of the turn is for skiers who already "own" the ability to achieve high edge angles, high ski performance, and are able to never get stuck back at the wrong times.

I agree with @Noodler that effective management of fore/aft to achieve a desired ski performance result is an advanced technique.

 

[Chris V.]

This is a common turn mechanic -- move forward, get the tails to start sliding in a wider path than the tips, move aft, then push the skis. Used by many many recreational skiers and a good number of ski instructors,

Take away the "push" part, and there's nothing wrong with this. There's certainly a place for slipped turns, brushed turns, skidded turns, whatever you'd care to call them, the challenge being to do it in a controlled way that results in a consistent degree of slippage or offset through the full turn. It's not pure carving, that's all.

 

[Mike King]

Take away the "push" part, and there's nothing wrong with this. There's certainly a place for slipped turns, brushed turns, skidded turns, whatever you'd care to call them, the challenge being to do it in a controlled way that results in a consistent degree of slippage or offset through the full turn. It's not pure carving, that's all.

No doubt. But there’s a big difference between pushers and those who are directing pressure along the ski to steer and grip.

 

[LiquidFeet]

No doubt. But there’s a big difference between pushers and those who are directing pressure along the ski to steer and grip.

What exactly does this mean: "directing pressure along the ski to steer and grip"?

Direct pressure where on the ski, and when in the turn?
Direct pressure in different places, or in one place?
If in different places, then in what sequence through a turn?
How does this moving (if it moves) pressure cause grip?
But wait, does pressure cause grip? If yes, how?
And does pressure cause steering? What does steering mean?

I ask all these questions because I find the phrasing inside the quotes to be too generic to mean anything. It sounds like some PSIA fundamental that doesn't tell anyone what needs to be done, just that something needs to be done.

@Mike King, I ask these questions in all seriousness. "Push" is a no-no in my book as it is in yours, but it would be nice to read what the alternative is with more specificity.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I keep having my mind blown by Gellie's video instruction. He takes my disjointed understandings and misunderstandings and my correct understandings which, were in fact, incorrect and makes sense of them to me.

Gellie's Turn Transitions Webinar answers some of LF's questions.

I need to watch it again, but here are some of my personal take aways (with apologies to Tom Gellie while I misstate him due to my lower level of understanding):

There are two Gravities in skiing:

1) Earth made Gravity which forces our bodies downward; and

2) A Perceived Gravity which is created by centripetal force which forces our body laterally or outward in the turn.

To my mind, the first gravity is static.

The second gravity is created dynamically by the skier with the ski.

Big take away for me:

1. YOU CREATE YOUR OWN PERCEIVED GRAVITY BY THE AMOUNT OF CENTRIPETAL FORCE YOU CHOOSE TO GENERATE BY THE AMOUNT OF GRIP ON YOUR SKIS, THE RADIUS OF YOUR SKIS' ARC, YOUR SPEED, AND THE STEEPNESS OF THE SLOPE;

2. YOU MANAGE THAT PERCEIVED GRAVITY BY INCLINING AGAINST YOUR SKIS. RATHER THAN CREATING PRESSURE BY PUSHING AGAINST YOUR SKIS YOU ARE MOVING YOUR BODY MASS ALONG THE LENGTH OF THE SKI AT VARIOUS PHASES OF THE TURN TO KEEP YOUR BODY INSIDE THE TURN BUT ALSO TO KEEP IT FROM FALLING INTO THE SNOW ON THE INSIDE OF THE TURN;

3. WHEN THERE IS INSUFFICIENT CENTRIPETAL FORCE OR THE SKIER'S BODY IS MISALIGNED/MISINCLINED AGAINST THAT FORCE, SKIER BAD HABITS/CRUTCHES OCCUR, LIKE PUTTING DOWNWARD WEIGHT ON THE INSIDE SKI AS AN IN-RIGGER WHICH CAUSES THE DREADED A-FRAME AND WHICH ACTUALLY CREATES A PHYSICAL BLOCK IMPEDING TOPPLING OF THE TORSO OVER THE SKIS.

He pegged me as the lazy type of guy in the Turn Transitions Webinar when he describes those guys who carve out and around and under but stay too much over the skis at initiation and apex so instead of generating enough centripetal force to truly incline the body inside the turn. And then at the bottom of the turn I shorten up the radius of the arc by steering the ski on edge under me and then topple my COM over the skis.

Yeah, it is truly “toppling” at the bottom of the turn. ok.

But my skiing lacks the generation of sufficient centripetal force to fully incline into the inside of the turn at the initiation and apex phases. So my skiing sucks. And yes, I have used my inside ski as an “in-rigger” to compensate for my failure to generate sufficient centripetal force to incline against the skis and, yes, this has caused me sometines even to wedge my entry into my "carving" turns.

His Movement Analysis of World Class skiers and PSIA Level 3's is simply the best I have ever seen. I would never see what he sees if he didn't point it out in his videos. Now that I have seen it, I can't unsee it. And as a result, now I truly know how bad my skiing truly sucks.


Edit: LF, you know that push or pull thing confused me too. But it is definitely a pulling action of the feet towards the finish of the turn for me when I have done it right in my mind. But the only way I have done it is when my torso has started to topple forward down the hill. That puts the skis outside and behind me as they are pulled to carve under at the bottom of the turn where the body then completes its toppling over the skis. And of course once the body has toppled forward, the skis must be pulled to catch up and pass under the body, but when they catch up with the body the skis are at the end of their arc - sideways - so the body speeds faster than the skis and topples over the skis again to be caught by the skis later.

It feels kinda like a Slinky Toy moving down the stairs when I have done it I think correctly.

Albeit poorly, due to a lack of sufficient inclination at the initiation and apex due to fear of speed or untrusting my edging skils or on dull edges.

Pushing the skis down and around - I have done it as a steering move - moves the body backwards up the hill and makes the body late to topple over the skis at the bottom of the turn IMHO.

 

[geepers]

This is a common turn mechanic -- move forward, get the tails to start sliding in a wider path than the tips, move aft, then push the skis. Used by many many recreational skiers and a good number of ski instructors,

But that doesn't need to be the result of manipulating pressure along the length of the ski. To effectively use fore/aft pressure management to achieve higher degrees of ski performance, you first need to learn how to move the center of mass with the path of the skis. So,


I agree with @Noodler that effective management of fore/aft to achieve a desired ski performance result is an advanced technique.

Maybe. Although there's nothing especially athletically challenging to attempting the moves the way Tom Gellie describes them. Both skis remain on the snow so it's not like doing some one ski balancing drill. an even get a feel for them in your lounge room. Getting all the timing right on snow and doing all the other necessary things (e.g. separation) likely to be another matter. But isn't that what separates intermediates from advanced?

Take away the "push" part, and there's nothing wrong with this. There's certainly a place for slipped turns, brushed turns, skidded turns, whatever you'd care to call them, the challenge being to do it in a controlled way that results in a consistent degree of slippage or offset through the full turn. It's not pure carving, that's all.

These type of turns where frontside/backside heavy are applicable include anything where the ski is redirected at the top of the turn and then made to grip further on in the arc. Sure, you can maintain a controlled skid through the whole arc but the concept is really more applicable to turns such as swing shorts where there's a rapid building of grip and pressure after the fall line. Where interesting things happen.

Indeed IIRC the frontside/backside heavy concepts fom TG were 1st introduced in a filmed lesson on mastering the short turn.

The type of turn TG demos at the start here.

 

[geepers]

What exactly does this mean: "directing pressure along the ski to steer and grip"?

Direct pressure where on the ski, and when in the turn?
Direct pressure in different places, or in one place?
If in different places, then in what sequence through a turn?
How does this moving (if it moves) pressure cause grip?
But wait, does pressure cause grip? If yes, how?
And does pressure cause steering? What does steering mean?

I ask all these questions because I find the phrasing inside the quotes to be too generic to mean anything. It sounds like some PSIA fundamental that doesn't tell anyone what needs to be done, just that something needs to be done.

@Mike King, I ask these questions in all seriousness. "Push" is a no-no in my book as it is in yours, but it would be nice to read what the alternative is with more specificity.

Fore and aft balance throughout the turn- which is essentially about directing pressure along the length of the ski - is discussed in intricate detail in the vids: (Note: need a subscription to open)
Short Turns Fore and Aft Balance
Short Turns The Virtual Bump Lesson
No More Skidding - How to finish turns strongly

Lots of detail on what to do and when.

The alternate to "push" is, surprisingly, "pull". Sounds facetious but that's exactly how Gellie describes it and exactly how it plays out on snow.

 

[geepers]

I keep having my mind blown by Gellie's video instruction. He takes my disjointed understandings and misunderstandings and my correct understandings which, were in fact, incorrect and makes sense of them to me.

Gellie's Turn Transitions Webinar answers some of LF's questions.

I need to watch it again, but here are some of my personal take aways (with apologies to Tom Gellie while I misstate him due to my lower level of understanding):

There are two Gravities in skiing:

1) Earth made Gravity which forces our bodies downward; and

2) A Perceived Gravity which is created by centripetal force which forces our body laterally or outward in the turn.

To my mind, the first gravity is static.

The second gravity is created dynamically by the skier with the ski.

Big take away for me:

1. YOU CREATE YOUR OWN PERCEIVED GRAVITY BY THE AMOUNT OF CENTRIPETAL FORCE YOU CHOOSE TO GENERATE BY THE AMOUNT OF GRIP ON YOUR SKIS, THE RADIUS OF YOUR SKIS' ARC, YOUR SPEED, AND THE STEEPNESS OF THE SLOPE;

2. YOU MANAGE THAT PERCEIVED GRAVITY BY INCLINING AGAINST YOUR SKIS. RATHER THAN CREATING PRESSURE BY PUSHING AGAINST YOUR SKIS YOU ARE MOVING YOUR BODY MASS ALONG THE LENGTH OF THE SKI AT VARIOUS PHASES OF THE TURN TO KEEP YOUR BODY INSIDE THE TURN BUT ALSO TO KEEP IT FROM FALLING INTO THE SNOW ON THE INSIDE OF THE TURN;

3. WHEN THERE IS INSUFFICIENT CENTRIPETAL FORCE OR THE SKIER'S BODY IS MISALIGNED/MISINCLINED AGAINST THAT FORCE, SKIER BAD HABITS/CRUTCHES OCCUR, LIKE PUTTING DOWNWARD WEIGHT ON THE INSIDE SKI AS AN IN-RIGGER WHICH CAUSES THE DREADED A-FRAME AND WHICH ACTUALLY CREATES A PHYSICAL BLOCK IMPEDING TOPPLING OF THE TORSO OVER THE SKIS.

He pegged me as the lazy type of guy in the Turn Transitions Webinar when he describes those guys who carve out and around and under but stay too much over the skis at initiation and apex so instead of generating enough centripetal force to truly incline the body inside the turn. And then at the bottom of the turn I shorten up the radius of the arc by steering the ski on edge under me and then topple my COM over the skis.

Yeah, it is truly “toppling” at the bottom of the turn. ok.

But my skiing lacks the generation of sufficient centripetal force to fully incline into the inside of the turn at the initiation and apex phases. So my skiing sucks. And yes, I have used my inside ski as an “in-rigger” to compensate for my failure to generate sufficient centripetal force to incline against the skis and, yes, this has caused me to even sometimes to wedge into my "carving" turns.

His Movement Analysis of World Class skiers and PSIA Level 3's is simply the best I have ever seen. I would never see what he sees if he didn't point it out in his videos. Now that I have seen it, I can't unsee it. And as a result, now I truly know how bad my skiing truly sucks.

Tim, that's a damned good summary wrt to carving turns and transitions as I understand it. Best of luck with your ski improvement journey.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....It feels kinda like a Slinky Toy moving down the stairs when I have done it I think correctly.....

Nicely stated.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Tim Hodgson and @geepers, in that post up there I was hoping @Mike King would answer my questions in his own words. Not to be snarky, but I wasn't asking Tom Gellie what he thinks about "directing pressure along the ski." And I already know what I think.

Yes, this thread is about Gellie's stuff. But we all translate what he says into words and terminology that we already have set up in our own minds. It's interesting to hear people paraphrase Tom Gellie's content. Tim's post above is an excellent example. I'm still looking for Mike's take in more detail.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....The alternate to "push" is, surprisingly, "pull". Sounds facetious but that's exactly how Gellie describes it and exactly how it plays out on snow.

When we conceptualize the feet as moving along a line separate from the line of the CoM, we can then choose the CoM as our frame of reference. This means we imagine the feet moving around under and to the sides of the CoM. When we do this, recognizing the presence of this "pull" makes sense. Well, it does if we get the feet back uphill behind the CoM at some point in the top of the turn.

The pulling sensation accompanies the sideways figure eight line of the feet below the CoM. AKA Bob Barnes' infinity thing. The CoM resides in the middle of this symbol and the feet travel around. The feet in this image are about to be pulled forward from behind the CoM.

 

[Mike King]

What exactly does this mean: "directing pressure along the ski to steer and grip"?

Direct pressure where on the ski, and when in the turn?
Direct pressure in different places, or in one place?
If in different places, then in what sequence through a turn?
How does this moving (if it moves) pressure cause grip?
But wait, does pressure cause grip? If yes, how?
And does pressure cause steering? What does steering mean?

I ask all these questions because I find the phrasing inside the quotes to be too generic to mean anything. It sounds like some PSIA fundamental that doesn't tell anyone what needs to be done, just that something needs to be done.

@Mike King, I ask these questions in all seriousness. "Push" is a no-no in my book as it is in yours, but it would be nice to read what the alternative is with more specificity.

I think @geepers did a great job of linking Tom's videos into to address you questions. And this all depends on intent. But let's say the objective is to turn the ski inside the radius the sidecut would allow. The basic strategy is as follows:

• Direct pressure forward in initiation of the turn to a) catch the tips and b) lighten the tails which creates torque operating on both the ski and a moment arm working on the center of mass. This causes the tails to take a wider path than the tips.
• In the shaping phase of the turn move to the center of the ski to create grip, resulting in the ski moving along it's length on the snow with the resulting redirection of the CoM.
• In the finish, direct pressure aft to cause the tail to grip.

Maybe. Although there's nothing especially athletically challenging to attempting the moves the way Tom Gellie describes them. Both skis remain on the snow so it's not like doing some one ski balancing drill. an even get a feel for them in your lounge room. Getting all the timing right on snow and doing all the other necessary things (e.g. separation) likely to be another matter. But isn't that what separates intermediates from advanced?

As Tom as pointed out, there's a significant amount of movement needed in a ski turn just to keep up with the changing slope angle and the resulting virtual bump.


I say that directing pressure forward and aft along the length of the ski with intent is an advanced move because it takes a lot of mileage just to stay in the center of the ski. There's a lot of learning to get to this point. And the amount of movement required differs as a result of turn radius and the steepness of the slope. In my view, skiers are better served developing and demonstrating mastery of moving with the ski to stay in the center prior to directing pressure along the length with intent. And I don't think it is a easy thing to master...

Mike

 

[Mike King]

When we conceptualize the feet as moving along a line separate from the line of the CoM, we can then choose the CoM as our frame of reference. This means we imagine the feet moving around under and to the sides of the CoM. When we do this, recognizing the presence of this "pull" makes sense. Well, it does if we get the feet back uphill behind the CoM at some point in the top of the turn.

The pulling sensation accompanies the sideways figure eight line of the feet below the CoM. AKA Bob Barnes' infinity thing. The CoM resides in the middle of this symbol and the feet travel around. The feet in this image are about to be pulled forward from behind the CoM.

View attachment 115996

Yep. And the "pull" in the finish of the turn pulls the skis back under the body allowing the body to topple into the next turn...

 

[Steve]

We used to teach beginners to up unweight to initiate a turn.
Why is it so advanced to teach them to move slightly to their heels and then back to the center?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

LF, Ah I see why you directed your question specifically to Mike King. He is a smart guy. This original Kingism or Gellieism paraphrase is very helpful to me:

• Direct pressure forward in initiation of the turn to a) catch the tips and b) lighten the tails which creates torque operating on both the ski and a moment arm working on the center of mass. This causes the tails to take a wider path than the tips.
• In the shaping phase of the turn move to the center of the ski to create grip, resulting in the ski moving along it's length on the snow with the resulting redirection of the CoM.
• In the finish, direct pressure aft to cause the tail to grip.

Mike

Steve, many years ago I read The Skier's Edge by Ron LeMaster, Jr. and tried teaching what became known as the direct to parallel technique. Some parts worked, but some parts didn't because edging a ski with skis in a parallel manner created way too much speed for a new and often hesitant if not frightened skier.

IMHO, same thing with lateral displacement of the skis to create centripetal force. The student would have to go too fast to create sufficeint centripetal and thus sufficient perceived gravity that they couldn't or wouldn't do it safely.

Thus, IMHO we are still left with teaching up unweighting to keep our students:

"Safe,
Fun, and
Leaning"

in that order.

Which of course means that we must unteach up unweighting when they are ready to advance.

Such is life.

 

[Noodler]

We used to teach beginners to up unweight to initiate a turn.
Why is it so advanced to teach them to move slightly to their heels and then back to the center?

What is the number #1 problem of almost every recreational skier? Being in the back seat of course. Going down this road with a skier that does not yet "own" being able to stay centered-to-forward throughout the turn is going to be problematic in my estimation.

I watched the Gellie video on fore/aft and the two skiers he is instructing are NOT getting the timing correct and are clearly back seat driving. This is an advanced concept.

 

[Mike King]

We used to teach beginners to up unweight to initiate a turn.
Why is it so advanced to teach them to move slightly to their heels and then back to the center?

Because where you need to be on the ski is dynamic. Not easy to do.

 

[Steve]

For me being forward is easier when I am coming from somewhere.

In other words, when I've tried to stay forward all the time it didn't work as well as it felt to move forward. And to move forward you have to be coming from somewhere behind, or you're not moving there.

 

[Steve]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think skiing from the center is an advanced technique. Moving isn't.

In the old days skiing was all about movement. Up/down. creating counter, actively twisting the skis off the tails, rotating.

Then it all became "oh with the new skis you don't need to do that anymore." Just stand on the center of the ski, keep your upper body quiet and tip side to side. Add some rotary and you're all set.

Just like the PMTS method, this is hard to do well. It's awesome when you master it, but it's not easy.

On the other hand extending to release, going up and down, moving your upper body around -- that's all easy. Limiting, but easier.

So I contend that mastering fore/aft is a basic skillset. Not trying to always be in the center. Knowing what being forward does, what being back does and what being centered does.

Using your legs to do everything takes a ton of practice. Using the forces of fore/aft and up/down are simple foci. Do what you need to get there, and try please not to flail around in the process!