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Tom Gellie's Webinars are Well Worth It IMO

LiquidFeet

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I've been thinking about this a lot. I think skiing from the center is an advanced technique. Moving isn't.

In the old days skiing was all about movement. Up/down. creating counter, actively twisting the skis off the tails, rotating.

Then it all became "oh with the new skis you don't need to do that anymore." Just stand on the center of the ski, keep your upper body quiet and tip side to side. Add some rotary and you're all set.

Just like the PMTS method, this is hard to do well. It's awesome when you master it, but it's not easy.

On the other hand extending to release, going up and down, moving your upper body around -- that's all easy. Limiting, but easier.

So I contend that mastering fore/aft is a basic skillset. Not trying to always be in the center. Knowing what being forward does, what being back does and what being centered does.

Using your legs to do everything takes a ton of practice. Using the forces of fore/aft and up/down are simple foci. Do what you need to get there, and try please not to flail around in the process!
Agree. Learning to move the torso up/down/around over the feet, as if the feet were stuck in place on the ground, is easier than learning to move the feet around under the torso, as if the torso were stuck in place up there in the air. On dry land our feet stick to what's under them. It's familiar.

To start learning on snow to move the feet around under our torso, as if it were stable, takes a big leap of faith. Or many small increments of newness that build up over time. Treating the torso as stable while making the feet do their thing independently under it is an advanced skill because it is so very different from dryland perambulation.
 
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Steve

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So this is interesting. There is a choice to be made between two approaches.

1. Teach people an outcome to attain, and use whatever part of their bodies they need to get there. Eventually will have to learn to quiet down and moderate Upper Body movements to fine tune their skiing.

2. Teach people to ski with a static UB, stay in the center of their foot -- discipline right away. It doesn't get you there, but stick with it, it eventually will and you won't have to unlearn something later.

Focus on the legs and feet. Eventually the student will have to learn to use their whole body. This is what happened to and is happening to me.
 

Steve

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Start with too much movement and reduce movement later, or
Start with too little movement and add movement later.
 

geepers

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When we conceptualize the feet as moving along a line separate from the line of the CoM, we can then choose the CoM as our frame of reference. This means we imagine the feet moving around under and to the sides of the CoM. When we do this, recognizing the presence of this "pull" makes sense. Well, it does if we get the feet back uphill behind the CoM at some point in the top of the turn.

The pulling sensation accompanies the sideways figure eight line of the feet below the CoM. AKA Bob Barnes' infinity thing. The CoM resides in the middle of this symbol and the feet travel around. The feet in this image are about to be pulled forward from behind the CoM.

View attachment 115996

"Pull" applies to both frontside heavy - where I'm pulling the tails of the ski towards the back of my head - and backside heavy where I'm pulling the tips to my nose as well as pulling my feet through on the virtual bump, both intended to load up the back of the ski.

The falling leaf drill as done in the short turn mastery lesson is the one that really brought this home for me.

I watched the Gellie video on fore/aft and the two skiers he is instructing are NOT getting the timing correct and are clearly back seat driving. This is an advanced concept.

Initiation / Acquisition / Consolidation / Refinement / Creative Variation.

Those two guys were between acquisition and consolidation. But neither looked a threat to life and limb attempting the movements. I thought sticking them on a 25m FIS cheater after a 14m was pretty challenging as well!
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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One of the big takeaways from my week skiing with Ann Schorling was how many of the coaching cues and drills that have been almost universally used may result in skiers winding up in positions that do not allow for efficient movement. For me, the big one this week was turning the legs (femurs) under a stable upper body. We practice drills such as pivot slips, we demonstrate turning the femurs under the body without moving the hip, but if you ski this way, you wind up with a big tip lead and no way to change the edges without an up movement, a rotation of the new outside foot, or some other major movement that is unlikely to result in ski performance.

What was the thing that got everything going together for me? It was allowing the hip to come through and track with the outside foot. I had kind of discovered this last season, but it was vividly demonstrated by Ann. I had an "aha" moment, went up and started bringing the hip through in the top of the turn and quit trying to rotate the legs through the finish of the turn. Tip lead gone, could finally find the tail of the ski in the finish, and was able to access the counter rotation of one femur against the other in initiation (ala Tom's javelin turn exercise).

All of this is by way of stating what's probably known to almost all of the instructors here: 1) there's a lot of things that are coached that are NOT biomechanically what we are attempting to achieve but are performance cues to achieve something similar ("get forward," "quiet upper body," "legs rotating under stable upper body," "get upside down at the top of the turn," etc.), and 2) we don't ski like the drills -- drills are there to isolate skills, but be careful in taking that into your skiing.

These realizations are part of why I find Tom's video instruction so valuable -- he goes into both the physics and biomechanics to fill in the pieces of what we really need to achieve to get the skis to perform. Sure, there's coaching cues, but he usually identifies those as coaching cues.

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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"Pull" applies to both frontside heavy - where I'm pulling the tails of the ski towards the back of my head - and backside heavy where I'm pulling the tips to my nose as well as pulling my feet through on the virtual bump, both intended to load up the back of the ski.
....
Yes, "pull" means moving something towards the body. So "pull" can mean moving the ski(s) towards the body from behind or towards the body from in front. I hadn't thought of the word applying that way but it makes total sense.

"Push" is commonly used to describe moving the ski/skis laterally across the snow, sideways, outwards and away from the body. "Push" usually means moving something away from the body, so that makes sense.

Is there a best word to use for moving the ski away from the body in the fore-aft plane? Is it good to use "pull" for those movements too?

If yes, then we have "push" and "pull," one word for lateral movement and the other for fore-aft movement. Nice 'n neat.
 
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Mike King

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Yes, "pull" means moving something towards the body. So "pull" can mean moving the ski(s) towards the body from behind or towards the body from in front. I hadn't thought of the word applying that way but it makes total sense.

"Push" is commonly used to describe moving the ski/skis laterally across the snow, sideways, outwards and away from the body. "Push" usually means moving something away from the body, so that makes sense.

Is there a best word to use for moving the ski away from the body in the fore-aft plane? Is it good to use "pull" for those movements too?

If yes, then we have "push" and "pull," one word for lateral movement and the other for fore-aft movement. Nice 'n neat.
@LiquidFeet it's my impression that Tom Gellie would generally think that moving the feet away from the body in the fore/aft plane is not an efficient movement -- he'd make an exception for recentering to regain balance, but otherwise his backside/frontside heavy moves are more pulling. Moving the feet away would be using a class one lever, I think, and would be a push.

Just my initial impression.
 

Tim Hodgson

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Gellie does use the word "push" in his "How to Create Early Pressure Webinar" (when you open it, it is also entitled "Early pressure in your carved turns - Aug 2020."

It refers to the initiation of a carved turn where the torso topples downhill, the old inside ski becomes the new outside ski and skier pushes on the tip of that ski to create early pressure (and bend) in that ski. He describes the skier's feeling as hanging upside down.
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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Gellie does use the word "push" in his "How to Create Early Pressure Webinar" (when you open it, it is also entitled "Early pressure in your carved turns - Aug 2020."

It refers to the initiation of a carved turn where the torso topples downhill, the old inside ski becomes the new outside ski and skier pushes on the tip of that ski to create early pressure (and bend) in that ski. He describes the skier's feeling as hanging upside down.
Yes, but this is a very subtle move, and has the potential to go quite wrong.
 

Tim Hodgson

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Mike, I don't want to overstate my skiing ability. Which is at best inconsistent, but I do/did that move before I watched Tom Gellie talk about it in his video.

For me it requires my forward leaning Lange L10 Race boots, and a shaped slalom ski with a softer shovel. But I do it at slower speeds on steeper terrain.

Please wait a moment and then give your ski recommendations in the other thread I have going now.
 
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Uke

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Pretty sure that this is what I refer to as 'reaching back up the hill with the toes to retain ski snow interaction in the earliest part of the arc'. Probably the same move and feelings just different people end up with different words to express it.

I think of this as a very dynamic high level move.

uke
 

Steve

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I skied this morning and Gellie's education worked brilliantly.

Keeping my focus on my fore/aft, and what I came to realize is that it's mostly using backside heavy and centered. I'd only move frontside heavy when I wanted some torque to turn more across the hill. Ah the torque awareness is worth the price of admission on it's own. Leg steering my ass. lol.

But mostly just fore/aft freedom worked incredibly well, even as the early WROD turned into a chopped up mess. It's almost a bump movement. Lift the toes (forefoot) moving pressure towards the tails, change edges and land right in the middle to start to carve the next turn.

Anyone remember "foot squirt?" ha ha. @KevinF as I recall once said he uses that on most every turn.

I also was focused on toppling, allowing my body to move inside at the top of the turn, creating edge angle, then starting to angulate, from the lower legs first and moving up the body. Uncoiling into the topple to the other side.

Multi-part separation is a big thing for Gellie.

Frontside Heavy/Backside Heavy and Torque
Toppling & Separation

These two foci I expect will transform my skiing.
 
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Steve

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.......and backside heavy where I'm pulling the tips to my nose as well as pulling my feet through on the virtual bump, both intended to load up the back of the ski.

Thanks for posting this yesterday, it really helped my skiing today.
 

HardDaysNight

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I skied this morning and Gellie's education worked brilliantly.

Keeping my focus on my fore/aft, and what I came to realize is that it's mostly using backside heavy and centered. I'd only move frontside heavy when I wanted some torque to turn more across the hill. Ah the torque awareness is worth the price of admission on it's own. Leg steering my ass. lol.

But mostly just fore/aft freedom worked incredibly well, even as the early WROD turned into a chopped up mess. It's almost a bump movement. Lift the toes (forefoot) moving pressure towards the tails, change edges and land right in the middle to start to carve the next turn.

Anyone remember "foot squirt?" ha ha. @KevinF as I recall once said he uses that on most every turn.

I also was focused on toppling, allowing my body to move inside at the top of the turn, creating edge angle, then starting to angulate, from the lower legs first and moving up the body. Uncoiling into the topple to the other side.

Multi-part separation is a big thing for Gellie.

Frontside Heavy/Backside Heavy and Torque
Toppling & Separation

These two foci I expect will transform my skiing.
I haven’t been posting recently but saw this post and just wanted to say that it really does my heart good. No one has worked harder and longer than you to improve his skiing or been fed more, shall I say, questionable information by the ski instructor establishment. Tom is the real deal though. The bolded bit above is very important. Congratulations on a big breakthrough. You won’t look back.
 

Steve

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I haven’t been posting recently but saw this post and just wanted to say that it really does my heart good. No one has worked harder and longer than you to improve his skiing or been fed more, shall I say, questionable information by the ski instructor establishment. Tom is the real deal though. The bolded bit above is very important. Congratulations on a big breakthrough. You won’t look back.

Thanks for the post, very nice of you to say. And yes, I emailed Tom today to tell him about my experiences on snow and mentioned torque. Here's what he said,

"That’s it torque is the main thing you need to know. Then legs turn easier. Or skis and legs turn together and in cooperation. So many people out there fighting torque and leverage. "
 

geepers

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Gellie does use the word "push" in his "How to Create Early Pressure Webinar" (when you open it, it is also entitled "Early pressure in your carved turns - Aug 2020."

It refers to the initiation of a carved turn where the torso topples downhill, the old inside ski becomes the new outside ski and skier pushes on the tip of that ski to create early pressure (and bend) in that ski. He describes the skier's feeling as hanging upside down.

My understanding is that it is a plantarflexion of the outside foot. The key is to ensure a low transition. Timing has to be just right otherwise it it ends up extending up and not laterally.

Happened to be down the snow when that vid came out. Watched it twice in the evening planning to try next day. Next morning was frozen after the previous afternoon rain. Most of the mountain was unmarkable ice on which I had no desire to attempt a new personal best for inclination. Race all over the mountain to find some decent snow before the crowds. Top was ok but then fogged out!

Later in the day as it warmed and managed to try in a few places. It's not easy to get the timing right - too early is up and too late misses the boat. At best I got a couple of turns where the front of the ski came back strongly. But I wasn't entirely easy with those movements and didn't feel in the zone. Just don't get enough days/weeks in a row in Australia to feel on top of things. That was the last day for that trip. On subsequent trips worked on TG's toppling concepts as they seemed more useful at this point.

It's one I'm looking forward to retrying on long wide pitches in BC. In the second month back on skis. Roll on 2022...

Interested to hear how others find it. That's absolutely one to work on with a knowledgeable buddy providing feedback or video.
 

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