Toppling and balance.

[gratedwasabi]

Howdy ya'll.

I know there are about a thousand videos on balance/center of gravity/topple but I'm suffering from "too much information" syndrome. I'm probably right at a level 5 or 6 skier and noticing these to be my biggest issues. Any help breaking this down as simple as possible would be much appreciated.

What's a simple way to think about balance & toppling while on the hill? Ie.. if I'm not doing drills, notice my form slipping because of fear/lack of confidence/whatever, what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track. And what's the best drill for this?

Is it "falling" into the next turn? If so, how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Is there any good way to practice this at home?

 

[abdul]

Try running/walking/jogging down a bank or steeper hill in an S-turn path (as if you're skiing downhill). You'll need to shift your weight ahead of your feet at different times in the S-turn (or "topple" your upper body ahead of your center of mass).

 

[Zirbl]

what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track.

What do you think of as balance and why do you want to keep it?

If so, how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Why do you want to do that?

Is there any good way to practice this at home?

Can you fit in your washing machine?

 

[Zirbl]

I'm suffering from "too much information" syndrome.

Wait till this thread is finished.

 

[Matt Merritt]

Hey, @Zirbl. I hope you're planning to apologize to the OP for that.

 

[Zirbl]

Hey, @Zirbl. I hope you're planning to apologize to the OP for that.

What is "that"?

 

[James]

What's a simple way to think about balance & toppling while on the hill? Ie.. if I'm not doing drills, notice my form slipping because of fear/lack of confidence/whatever, what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track. And what's the best drill for this?

Unclear what your issue is. Maybe a little more info.
Ironically, pole use might help if it’s committing to go downhill.

 

[Wade]

What is "that"?

Not to speak for @Matt Merritt, but I imagine he’s referring to you responding to the OPs request for help with a few obtuse, slightly snarky sounding questions.

It seems like somewhere along the line in some sub branch of ski instruction, someone felt like it would be a good idea to ask students to define their understanding of what I guess are terms that have a specific technical meaning, rather than just finding a way to help someone. I’m sure whoever came up with that approach thought it would be helpful. For me at least, it’s the opposite.

I opened the thread hoping to read some different ways to address the OPs request for help on a topic I’m interested in, and thought there was a chance one or more of them would resonate with me. Instead I saw that response and just closed the thread. Maybe if I was a ski instructor and had a higher level technical understanding than I do, I’d be in to that approach. As someone with just a decent lay person’s understanding of technical concepts in skiing, it just feels unhelpful and almost like a way to make the student feel worse about their lack of knowledge on the subject or their inability to articulate in technically correct terms exactly what they want to improve.

 

[gratedwasabi]

Unclear what your issue is. Maybe a little more info.
Ironically, pole use might help if it’s committing to go downhill.

Specifically it's trying to learn what it should feel like to properly balance & topple (as Carv likes to say) into a turn and how to build that into muscle memory. One really good thing to key on to maintain balance and proper lean when things get steep and I start feeling myself getting into the backseat.

I can watch videos and see what they're doing, I can read instructions on it, but I don't know what it feels like to do it. The advice from @abdul was helpful, ie "Try running/walking/jogging down a bank or steeper hill in an S-turn path" as it lets me experience some of that feeling.

Carv tells me to move my body forward and laterally at the start of the turn, weight crossing diagonally over your skis, presumably towards the apex of the turn. So I'll work on that. Just looking for any other tips how to feel the correct balance & topple on turn initiation.

 

[Seldomski]

how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Something that helped me become comfortable with the toppling sensation was skating on very gentle green directly down the hill. Start from flat spot, then progressively make each stride longer and longer and go down hill. You will be balancing on the new outside ski on its edge with it uphill from you, behind you.

You will need to learn how to skate properly on skis in a flat area. You start balancing on the little toe edge and roll it to big toe as you push off it. This (rolling from little to big toe) can also be practiced on inline skates. It's a subtle thing that happens in good skiing.

Doing the skate downhill on gentle green is one thing. You then have to remember the same sensations, fully committing to the new outside ski with it uphill of you on progressively steeper terrain. It's easy to regress and stay back and inside when you increase the pitch of the slope.

 

[François Pugh]

It feels like making s turns on a bicycle.
It feels like changing tack in a small sail boat.
It feels like a quick s curve in a car.

Any balance exercise is good. Some simple ones requiring no special equipment are: standing on one foot, standing on one foot in the dark or with your eyes closed, waving one foot around while balancing on the other foot (and in the dark).

You balance against the ground reaction force, mostly on your outside ski, and then at transition smoothly switch your balance to the (old) inside ski (new outside ski), with possibly (but not necessarily - there are different ways of doing it) a moment of no force in between.

 

[Zirbl]

It seems like somewhere along the line in some sub branch of ski instruction, someone felt like it would be a good idea to ask students to define their understanding of what I guess are terms that have a specific technical meaning, rather than just finding a way to help someone. I’m sure whoever came up with that approach thought it would be helpful.

I'm being asked to apologise for Socrates?

 

[Jilly]

Not sure I understand "topplying"? Are you talking about moving into the new turn? If so, try moving your pole plant farther down the hill. Get it away from the boot.

Balance - I have a fav when things don't seem right. Find a wider slope for this. As you move across the run, stand up, and bounce. Yes bounce so that your skis are unweighted. 2 X. At the last "landing" tip the skis and go. Kathy Prophet refers to it as Bounce, bounce woosh.. The bounce will balance you on both skis. Tipping the ski will start the turn, but you are balanced on the edges. Gravity will move the weight to the downhill ski.

 

[geepers]

The 1st one shows a dryland drill - can do in a narrowish corridor if no padding. And then translates to drills/free skiing on snow,


2nd one is a visual of @Seldomski skating downhill.

 

[Fuller]

@geepers

Wait, Seldomski is Joshua Duncan Smith?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Not having seen you ski, do you know what a White Pass turn is and can you do it? If you want toppling, that's toppling.

 

[James]

Specifically it's trying to learn what it should feel like to properly balance & topple (as Carv likes to say) into a turn and how to build that into muscle memory. One really good thing to key on to maintain balance and proper lean when things get steep and I start feeling myself getting into the backseat.

Well “toppling”, much as I hate that term, is imbalance, not balance. The bicycle s turns Francois mentioned is a good example. When you go from one side to the other, are you in balance?

It’s difficult to say what you will feel, since no one knows but you. But we can make some generalities that you might connect with.

On skis, on a pitch, it’s a moment of imbalance and trust. You learn to trust it will work out. Beginners do not trust at all, in terrain that’s too steep for them. So they will not let go of that downhill leg, and will do something odd if they must turn. Stem, jump, and if young enough, sit back and bend.

Once you commit to going downhill, it can feel like diving into a pool. As you are falling, your skis come around and catch you, and if you shorten the inside/uphill leg, you are now balanced on the outside/downhill foot.

“Dive and have faith”
“Falling into the future”
Both used for the falling portion. The top more for steeps probably, and “falling into the future” for most turns where “toppling”.

It depends how steep it is, but in relatively short/medium turns, not so steep, it can feel like you’re an upside down pendulum as you go from one side of the skis to the other and repeat.

The legs can feel like riding a bicycle, as you go long/leg short and are gradually switching.

On steep, there’s more air time, it takes more conscious effort to commit going down hill. At some pitch, you have to convince yourself and talk through it.

If you are too aft at the end of the turn, too far to compensate with pulling the feet back, you can pivot the skis into the new turn and you will end up centered. If you had a little model of a skier that’s bendable, it’s easy to see how.

In general-
I would recommend skiing slowly on a gentle pitch, and concentrate on feeling being balanced on the outside ski. Then, at transition, notice and call out when you transfer balance to the new outside ski. Seek to do this early.

>You need to feel that and know when it happens, and make it happen early<
No foot sensor (carve) replaces your brain and mind from getting that info.

Frankly, if you don’t get/perceive/influence that balance on the outside foot, on very easy terrain, and slowly, there’s no point in going further. It’s fundamental.

 

[David Chaus]

Howdy ya'll.

I know there are about a thousand videos on balance/center of gravity/topple but I'm suffering from "too much information" syndrome. I'm probably right at a level 5 or 6 skier and noticing these to be my biggest issues. Any help breaking this down as simple as possible would be much appreciated.

What's a simple way to think about balance & toppling while on the hill? Ie.. if I'm not doing drills, notice my form slipping because of fear/lack of confidence/whatever, what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track. And what's the best drill for this?

Is it "falling" into the next turn? If so, how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Is there any good way to practice this at home?

Think about side-slipping. Practice side slipping on the slopes, moving the least amount possible to stop side slipping, particularly the downhill ski which is weighted more than the uphill ski. Not a sudden hockey stop, rather a slight gradual movement of feet and ankles. Similarly, what is the least effort and movement to regain grip. Feel what it takes to be “on the edge of control“ to prevent slipping where you barely have edge grip, then side slipping, then back to barely gripping. Try this on both sides.

Do one turn from this position, then the other side using the same touch and sensitivity. After you’ve got the feeling and can do this several times, then try it linking two or three turns. This is the goal of transition, to be “on the edge of release” so that the next turn takes very little movement. Call it toppling, or not, but this is where one can get really good at the readiness to turn.

 

[gratedwasabi]

Thanks, everyone! I'll try this out. Sorry, yeah, Carv calls it toppling and now that term is stuck in my head.

 

[Chris V.]

What do you think of as balance and why do you want to keep it?

Iconoclastic and profound.

Sure, we want to be in balance some of the time.