Toppling and balance.

[slidingmike]

I learned to “topple” long before I learned to carve. For my learning path, skiing on progressively steeper terrain involved that thrilling (or terrifying) moment when initiating the next turn, that leap of faith, where you released and pitched your upper body down the hill and your skis would come around and follow.

But then again, we learn this movement as toddlers. Walking is just a series of topples.

 

[JESinstr]

I learned to “topple” long before I learned to carve.

I would submit carving and "toppling" coincided but with the old technology the results were not as dynamic as with today's skis

For my learning path, skiing on progressively steeper terrain involved that thrilling (or terrifying) moment when initiating the next turn, that leap of faith, where you released and pitched your upper body down the hill and your skis would come around and follow.

However you want to describe it, the goal is to get to inclination (see Gillies video up thread) .Those who remain perpendicular to gravity out of fear or whatever (and there are a bunch of whatevers) will be relying on rotary (hence skidding) to get the skis redirected.

But then again, we learn this movement as toddlers. Walking is just a series of topples.

Excellent observation!

 

[geepers]

Why don't we change the terminology to "Topsy Turvy" LOL!

May be old fashioned but that term brings up mental images of:

 

[Sherman89]

When we get I to a discussion of toppling we need to back up a little and reference what we are trying to execute on our skis in relation to carving an arc to arc on medium to large GS style turns at speed. I believe the purpose of toppling (inclination) is to speed up the early high edging at the beginning of the new turn well before the fall line but what has to happen at or slightly previous is the rolling on to the new edges by ankle and knee flexion combined with a forward hip angulation movement into the new turn accompanied by toppling and this all happens in a milli second. The transition to the new turn is instant, any delay and the the turn falls apart generally because the skier has failed to move the hips forward via ankle flexion and leads to a knee squat and into the back seat we go. The tails wash out and the thighs burn. Remember we have squared up and in the center of the ski and boot during the transition and need to move forward into the new turn.

 

[Henry]

In a pure carved turn the skis must be flat on the snow for a period of time as the skis are rolled from the old inside edge to the new inside edge in order to begin the next turn. The flat period ends the old turn, and the new inside edge engagement begins the new turn. So...how do we make the time when the skis are flat on the snow and going straight (no steering here) as short as possible? By getting the body inside the new turn that we're about to begin; by showing the bottoms of the skis uphill. This requires the "topple" or whatever we want to call it when we get the body downhill from the skis and inside the new turn. I don't like the word topple; it sounds like falling off something or something falling over, but I don't have a better term in mind. Centrifugal force keeps us from falling, so we need some speed to generate the needed centrifugal force. The earliest possible counter and angulation helps the beginning of the new turn. When it goes just right it's a great sensation.

 

[HardDaysNight]

The earliest possible counter and angulation helps the beginning of the new turn.

You are right but be cautious lest you incur the scorn of the random ski coaches who infest the internet.

 

[Mike B]

... showing the bottoms of the skis uphill.

I like simple external ques like this. Skiing on your downhill edges is fun.

 

[markojp]

What do call that feeling when towards the end of the turn you unbalance against the centripetal force and the inertia of your torso causes it to fly off tangentially to the old turn whilst your feet/skis are still at least partly engaged?

Easy. "Cool".

 

[oldschoolskier]

@gratedwasabi its actually very simple in concept. You've heard of sea legs, getting your balance on a boat as it moves, skiing is no different. Start with something simple every run, side slip 5-10ft each side, ski the run, do this for a while, you will all of a sudden ski different because your edge feel and balance is better. Later you'll know when you are ready start making it more difficult, add falling leaf, spins, paused spins etc. As this gets easier, your skiing improves dramatically as this simple stuff applies to all the other skills you learn.

I still do these drills (even after 57yrs on the slopes) at the start of the season (to get my ski legs back) for the first few runs, after that first run of the day, or when I'm trying new skis or setups, adjust my feel to the equipment.

Keep it simple, have fun, don't over think it.

BTW if you search up my posts you'll see that I give this advice time and time again as it is the simplest thing you can do and has the greatest impact on everything you do.

 

[geepers]

You are right but be cautious lest you incur the scorn of the random ski coaches who infest the internet.

When do we get to room 12?

 

[James]

When do we get to room 12?

It’s just contradiction, not an argument!

 

[ThomasH]

Howdy ya'll.

I know there are about a thousand videos on balance/center of gravity/topple but I'm suffering from "too much information" syndrome. I'm probably right at a level 5 or 6 skier and noticing these to be my biggest issues. Any help breaking this down as simple as possible would be much appreciated.

What's a simple way to think about balance & toppling while on the hill? Ie.. if I'm not doing drills, notice my form slipping because of fear/lack of confidence/whatever, what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track. And what's the best drill for this?

Is it "falling" into the next turn? If so, how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Is there any good way to practice this at home?

This particular vid might help (it's part of a larger series):

 

[François Pugh]

This particular vid might help (it's part of a larger series):

I like this one better, level 3 is where it's at.

 

[BTWilliams]

Howdy ya'll.

I know there are about a thousand videos on balance/center of gravity/topple but I'm suffering from "too much information" syndrome. I'm probably right at a level 5 or 6 skier and noticing these to be my biggest issues. Any help breaking this down as simple as possible would be much appreciated.

What's a simple way to think about balance & toppling while on the hill? Ie.. if I'm not doing drills, notice my form slipping because of fear/lack of confidence/whatever, what's a quick way to think about getting my balance back on track. And what's the best drill for this?

Is it "falling" into the next turn? If so, how do I maintain weight at the initiation of the turn on the new ski.

Is there any good way to practice this at home?

#1 There is no simple way to explain or understand something very complex.
#2 If something is not making sense to you and the way you ski, it may be because you are fundamentally not at the level to learn the lesson you are trying to learn. I will comment more on this at the end. I am going to assume you ARE ready to learn the skills you are trying to learn.
#3 Stop thinking about the hips moving into the inside of the turn, falling into the turn, etc. It does not work that way. Start thinking about REACHING further out with your skis. This reach is initiated in the TRANSITION when edge pressure is light. In one of Deb Armstrong's videos she was talking to a US ski team athlete about edge angles, and he specifically mentioned "reaching" further and further out and just having supreme confident the skis would hold. Watch World Cup skiers in Slalom. Specifically look at the gates set on FLAT parts of a course, if there are any. Those gates will not be as far across the fall line. The center of mass of the skiers on those sorts of turns barely move side to side across the fall line at all. The skis are 30" out to the left...then 30" to the right, while the skiers hips are going straight down the hill. So exactly how on earth are their hips falling to the inside of the turn? They are NOT AT ALL. It is their skis that are moving, reaching, relative to the skiers center of mass. All high level race turns are like this. You want the center of mass to move AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, which means the skis must move out as far as possible. So again, start thinking and feeling your legs reaching, and forget about this whole toppling idea. It is just plain nonsense.
#4 If you "reach" farther out, there are two possible outcomes. A - You will end up on your inside ski and lose the outside edge, possible falling. B - you will develop higher edge angles and rip turns like an FIS skier.
#5 For most, when we "reach" really far out the former is the result because we are lacking some very challenging advanced fundamentals. Two weeks ago I took a high speed fall because I was skiing sloppy, and on a pitch too steep for my current high edge angle carving skills. I got aggressive laying into a turn. I really reached out, and the skis never had a prayer of holding. My inside ski was flatter than my outside (A-framing too much early in the turn). A flatter inside ski takes weight off the outside ski while simultaneously adding no turning force. I slid about 100 yards at 30+ mph on my hip/side. It forced me to go back to work on some fundamentals, and realize my inside ski awareness with my left leg was a big problem. This soon led to a major breakthrough for me. More on that below.
#5 The most critical advanced fundamental is inside ski awareness, and the ability to adjust BOTH your ski angles dynamically AND independently at the same time. Your inside ski is not along for a ride. In fact, for high performance high edge angle turns, your inside ski is the control system in the early, most critical part of the turn.
#6 To develop inside ski awareness and control, do Garlands, One Ski Skiing (Watch Burke Mountain Academy One Ski Drill), and then make good carved turns on a very easy/mild slope FEELING your inside ski inclination. You MUST develop the feel of dorsiflexing your inside ankle joint while driving your inside (leading) knee towards the inside of the turn (not up or forward!) to increase your inside ski edge angle. You should spend a lot of time on very easy slopes without too much pitch, just cranking turns. Build up a lot of speed, and then burn off speed as you crank high edge angle turns. You should be able to drag your inside hand without going out of position. It does not work the other way. If you can not do FIS level turns on a very flat slope, there is ZERO chance of doing them on a steeper slope. You develop the skills on easy slopes, they build the pitch while holding that form/feeling/skill set.
#7 The other advanced fundamental is the low transition. I see very very few skiers out on the hill actually do a low transition. Watch Triggerboy62's "How to CARVE LOW" to understand this better. It is one of the best explanations of the importance of the low transitions that I have found. I was at Mammoth recently, and watched some of the Jr. FIS program skiers free-skiing. Even many of them were getting lazy and not doing a consistent low transition. This is probably because it is exhausting to ski that way all the time. But this is absolutely a mandatory skill. When you are cranking a high edge angle turn, your DH/loaded leg is barely bent. Call this stacked, call it strong, whatever. It has to be in that strong position because if you bend it any more, it will collapse under the massive load. So your loaded leg is actually quite TALL in the turn, but it is inclined perpendicular for your ski bases. Skiers who rip high edge angle turns are not short....they are TALL....but they are so inclined that they LOOK low. So..... what needs to happen in transition? If you maintain this strong and tall leg position, all that energy will go into "pop" and your center of mass will bet pushed up way too much. You will push your body up. This is the old way of skiing. This un-weights everything, most importantly your skis, and makes your transition SLOW SLOW SLOW. So what you have to learn is to get SHORTER in transition. It is almost the opposite of what us older skiers learned in the 80s. In transition, your should look like you are sitting in a chair...both legs bent about 90 degrees. This is physically very hard, and technically very hard as you are in a bad position that you must very quickly recover from. But when you start to do the low transition you will be shocked at two things. #1 how quick you can go from edge to edge and #2 how it facilitates reaching further out with the skis. The whole problem with "patience" and having to wait for the skiis to initiate a carve pretty much goes out the window when you learn a low transition. You will immediately start developing edging forces. This is a big part of what makes developing early high edge angles possible.

Putting it all together, if you do not do a low transition, you really can not "reach out" to quickly create high edge angles. And if you do not have good inside ski awareness and control, creating a early high edge angle will likely just lead to a bigger crash. So, in the name of safety, learn inside ski awareness. Then learn the low transition. Then you can start to REACH more.

Now, lets take it a further level. Just recently, I learned something that I should have understood months ago. But why didn't I? I was not ready to learn the lesson. Specifically, I thought I understood how important the inside ski was. The reality was, I did not have a clue. It was not until I learned the low transition, and started really working hard on inside ski awareness that I discovered how the inside ski actually controls the outside ski edge angle. You hear lots of coaches talk about shortening the inside leg, and driving the inside knee so as to create high edge angles. But this is very misleading. I have not heard A SINGLE coach actually tell you HOW to shorten your inside leg. You are left to think that you just pull it up using your hip flexors, and then your body will just "fall" into higher edge angles. It does not work that way at all. It was not till I started developing the ability to adjust both edge angles at the same time that I had an "ah ha" moment. I have terrible inside ski feel on my left turns (I am right leg dominant) but pretty good inside ski feel on my right turns, where my inside ski is my right leg. I noticed that if I tried to incline my inside right ski (on a right turn) to a higher edge angle, then it did something strange. It basically "stretched" my inside leg/boot inside and forward and inclining my whole body AND the outside ski, while maintaining a stable balanced and highly loaded position. Total "ahha!" moment. The realization was that you do NOT "drive you knee" or "shorten your inside leg" using your leg muscles. YOU SHORTEN YOUR INSIDE LEG BY CARVING THE SKI AWAY FROM (MORE THAN) YOUR OUTSIDE SKI WHICH THEN PUSHES YOUR LEG INTO A SHORTER POSITION WITH MORE INSIDE SKI LEAD! This then cranks up your OUTSIDE SKI EDGE ANGLE. This is how the inside ski is the "control" for your outside edge angle. This is what I meant by "being ready to learn a lesson" I though I was ready to understand inside ski shortening, but I WAS NOT. My skiing was not at a level where I could understand the context of the technique. I did not have the dynamic edge control, motor control and feel to drive my inside ski to higher edge angles. I still don't with my left ski. And because I was not able to do that, my attempts to increase edge angles by shortening the inside leg just created more problems like that crash I described. I was not using the right technique to shorten my inside leg because I literally did not have the motor control to tip my ski in that way. Do slow Garlands and you will see what I mean. You may find, like me, that it is very hard to incline your non-dominant inside ski and maintain equilibrium dynamic balance. Either you fall into the hill, or the skis over edge and come under you.

So, if you are having hard time understanding certain concepts as they relate to your skiing, it may be because you are lacking some fundamentals and motor control skills that you do not even know you are lacking. This creates a tactile disconnect, and the results of some techniques may not be what you expect them to be. Pointers that people give you will not work, because you are not able to actually do the technique properly. You need to find that missing piece and fix it.

 

[razie]

I see it here.

Thanks for the video... but I don't think you're getting my point and the contradiction with the merry-go-round video...

To topple something (other than dictators and such) you need a firm base and a lever. Think toppling the fridge. You can't topple something if you simply let it drop... although the literal meaning for "topple" is "cause to become unsteady and fall." so even a cat pushing the vase would qualify as a topple, I guess...

Flexing to release removes any base/connection/lever between the body and the ground and simply lets it move forward. I don't think of that as toppling, in my normal understanding of the word. If one just lets the legs go limp and falls vertically, I don't see that as topple. If one is pushed and toppled like a statue, then that fits.

Like i said, also puts the focus on the upper body, as if that's the first thing to move into the new turn. Which is a bad idea

 

[Zirbl]

I have not heard A SINGLE coach actually tell you HOW to shorten your inside leg. You are left to think that you just pull it up using your hip flexors, and then your body will just "fall" into higher edge angles. It does not work that way at all. It was not till I started developing the ability to adjust both edge angles at the same time that I had an "ah ha" moment. I have terrible inside ski feel on my left turns (I am right leg dominant) but pretty good inside ski feel on my right turns, where my inside ski is my right leg. I noticed that if I tried to incline my inside right ski (on a right turn) to a higher edge angle, then it did something strange. It basically "stretched" my inside leg/boot inside and forward and inclining my whole body AND the outside ski, while maintaining a stable balanced and highly loaded position. Total "ahha!" moment. The realization was that you do NOT "drive you knee" or "shorten your inside leg" using your leg muscles. YOU SHORTEN YOUR INSIDE LEG BY CARVING THE SKI AWAY FROM (MORE THAN) YOUR OUTSIDE SKI

This has clearly been a game changer you've been kind enough to share but I'm struggling to visualise it as well as I'd like to.
Specifically:
stretched your boot?
stretched the inside leg/boot inside and forward - stretched inside and forward of what? Typically, you'd think of the centre of mass being inside and forward of the skis. Trying to picture what you're talking about but can't work out what the reference point is for forward and inside, or how stretching makes it shorter.
Carving the inside ski away from the outside ski? Away in which plane or direction? Picturing your inside ski digging a tunnel underneath your outside ski here, but that's clearly not what you meant.

 

[markojp]

This has clearly been a game changer you've been kind enough to share but I'm struggling to visualise it as well as I'd like to.
Specifically:
stretched your boot?
stretched the inside leg/boot inside and forward - stretched inside and forward of what? Typically, you'd think of the centre of mass being inside and forward of the skis. Trying to picture what you're talking about but can't work out what the reference point is for forward and inside, or how stretching makes it shorter.
Carving the inside ski away from the outside ski? Away in which plane or direction? Picturing your inside ski digging a tunnel underneath your outside ski here, but that's clearly not what you meant.

FWIW, i didn’t understand any of that either.

 

[BTWilliams]

This has clearly been a game changer you've been kind enough to share but I'm struggling to visualise it as well as I'd like to.
Specifically:
stretched your boot?
stretched the inside leg/boot inside and forward - stretched inside and forward of what? Typically, you'd think of the centre of mass being inside and forward of the skis. Trying to picture what you're talking about but can't work out what the reference point is for forward and inside, or how stretching makes it shorter.
Carving the inside ski away from the outside ski? Away in which plane or direction? Picturing your inside ski digging a tunnel underneath your outside ski here, but that's clearly not what you meant.

Lets say you are early in a carve, and you have good edge angle similarity. Your DH leg/knee is bent about 20-25 degrees....in a strong "stacked" position. Your inside leg is bent much more, and you have inside knee/tip lead. Geometry / human bone structure essentially dictates all this. 85% of your weight is going to be on your DH leg, simply because it is going to be 5-6 times stronger than the inside leg. Then starting from this position you tilt your INSIDE ski (increase your edge angle) a bit more by leaning your lower leg/knee to the inside of the turn. To do this you will find you need ankle dorsiflexion and good footbed feel. But when you do manage to develop the control to incline that inside ski a bit more than normal, what happens? That ski is lightly loaded. It is not doing a lot of work. It is going to quite reliably track a bit tighter arc along the snow than your outside ski. It is ever so subtly going to "ski away" from your outside ski - towards the INSIDE....not the outside as you assumed. So your inside leg is going to move away from your outside leg towards the center point of your turn arc. But you are already leaning over, in a turn, so your knee gets pushed up towards your upper body and forward. Again, bone structure dictates this. This has a "stretchy" feel to it, which is why I used that term. But what happens when your inside ski moves away from the outside ski, with both on good edge angles? The distance between skis widens, and your whole body LEANS OVER MORE. When you lean over more, your outside skis edge angle increases. THAT is how it all works. In essence, your inside ski edge angle is the tool to properly shorten your inside leg. You do not shorten your inside leg by directly pulling your knee up...that will just cause you to A-frame, and then lose the outside edge. You shorten the inside leg by being able to edge using that inside edge, and control it independent of your outside edge. For must of us, the inside ski is just along for the ride, so this requires a lot of drills and practice to develop the required awareness and control. You have to be able to control that inside edge angle on its own. And when you crank the inside edge a bit more than normal, it will "stretch" your inside leg up into that shortened position, and you can then develop those crazy outside edge angles. The outside edge angle follows the inside due to simple geometry. Your inside ski is like the steering wheel for your turn.

Take everything I have said here, then go watch Deb Armstrong's videos about inside leg shortening and inside leg driving turn radius. She says 99% of the important stuff, but the one missing piece is that she did not clearly say HOW you shorten your inside leg. She just says "drive that knee". What that actually means is increase your inside ski edge angle. I totally misinterpreted what "drive that knee" meant, and believed you shorten your inside leg by directly using your leg muscles. NO. You shorten your inside leg by being able to deliberately carve a tighter arc (more edge angle) with your inside ski.

This is not easy at all. Again, for most of us, the inside ski is sort of along for the ride, and we do not have the muscle activation and low level control to subtly incline the inside ski MORE than the outside, to tight turn radius and increase outside edge angle. I just spent three whole days doing one ski skiing, and uphill ski only garlands and just started to develop the feel to use my dominant leg as inside ski to tighten turn radius. For me, ankle dorsiflextion (activation/use of shim muscles to pull my foot to my shins) and feeling my footbed is critical to tipping the inside ski more. If I do not actively pull up my foot and feel the right side of my footbed on my inside ski, I literally can not get the ski to incline more. It is a very difficult move to make. I can't do it all with my left leg yet (left turn)

 

[Zirbl]

@BTWilliams ah now I get you, thanks.

Specifically look at the gates set on FLAT parts of a course, if there are any. Those gates will not be as far across the fall line. The center of mass of the skiers on those sorts of turns barely move side to side across the fall line at all.

All high level race turns are like this.

If they are, why do we have to discount two thirds of the course?

 

[BTWilliams]

@BTWilliams ah now I get you, thanks.



If they are, why do we have to discount two thirds of the course?

Huh? I think you missed the point. All turns are like that in that the skis move more than the center of mass. You never fall to the inside of the turn, or have your hips move to the inside of the turn. It is the skis reaching out, not the hips moving or falling in.