Toppling

[Steve]

Thinking about this more in the hot tub this morning, and I think my describing dropping the new outside shoulder and arm isn't the best way to understand this movement.

The Upper Body shifts towards the direction of the new turn, towards the inside of the turn.

As soon as the skis change edges it starts its shift in the opposite direction, towards the outside of the turn, pressuring the outside ski and moving towards the topple.

The Ribcage is moving continuously left and right, with slight rotation -- ahead of the skis.

 

[Steve]

Me too. Which I fully support. If that's toppling, topple on!

As for starting with the feet, I think it's so important that everything start with the feet. It doesn't mean everything else can't move at the same time. I've been talking about my "meatloaf" theory in clinics this year. The theory being that most people treat their feet like meatloafs. They are just hunks of meat on tehbottom of your foot that keeps your boot from falling off. There are 26 (I think?) bones in your foot and they can all move. More importantly, you can move them! You can open and close the arch of your foot and that's where the movements need to start (Argentine demo team calls it "the clam", open and close the clam, I love that image). That doesn't diminish anything else. It doesn't mean just stand there while you wiggle your feet around, but it is something that is missing from a lot of people's skiing.

TG would totally support and agree with you here Erik. He has multiple videos on using the feet, the 3 arches on the bottom of the foot, imagining your feet on your skis without bindings and suction cups on the bottom of your feet or magnets connecting them to your skis. Tons of great stuff on this.

The eye opening thing for those of us at the lower levels is the active utilization of the Upper Body, taking nothing away from the feet and legs.

 

[Steve]

The Mahre Brothers said "We ski with our feet, we balance with our upper bodies."

 

[Erik Timmerman]

TG would totally support and agree with you here Erik. He has multiple videos on using the feet, the 3 arches on the bottom of the foot, imagining your feet on your skis without bindings and suction cups on the bottom of your feet or magnets connecting them to your skis. Tons of great stuff on this.

The eye opening thing for those of us at the lower levels is the active utilization of the Upper Body, taking nothing away from the feet and legs.

Haha, I taught a clinic last week where we were imagining skiing without bindings, but with skate board grip tape. Skiing the bumps as if we were James Bond stuntmen standing on the skis from an exploded snowmobile.

 

[Scruffy]

The Upper Body shifts towards the direction of the new turn, towards the inside of the turn.

As soon as the skis change edges it starts its shift in the opposite direction, towards the outside of the turn, pressuring the outside ski and moving towards the topple.

The Ribcage is moving continuously left and right, with slight rotation -- ahead of the skis.

What is the first upper body part that starts that chain of action? Answer: your hand. The beginning of your pole plant moves everything else. Even if you don't overtly pole plant, like in high speed arc to arc carving or running gates, there is a gesture of a pole plant with the hand and arm. This is often neglected in these conversations. Your hands and arms are always in motion orchestrating your skiing. Even in a DH race tuck you'll see their arms together out in front leading and directing the rest of the racer's body.

Look at this video of Tom Gellie
Pause it at :30 and then step thru :30 - :31 one frame at a time using your period key ( you can o in reverse with comma key too ). As he is lightening his outside leg his outside hand and arm are moving to the new turn dragging the rib cage over his outside ski.


Same thing here ( the Topple video ) at :10-:11 seconds in this video

Same thing with Paul Lorenz here at :42-:43. It's harder to see with the snow spray and he doesn't pole plant, but there is a definite movement of the arm ( gesture of a pole plant )

 

[Noodler]

Starting turns from the feet sounds like a good idea, and for visualisation purposes it isn't too bad, but really if you're tipping the skis over you are using every part of your legs to do it.

I'm not sure about this whole toppling idea, I can't really see how it's different to inclination but if it helps people make the movements I guess it can't be bad. Does feel slightly reminiscent of pmts, people buying into new ways of describing the same old stuff.

 

[Steve]

What is the first upper body part that starts that chain of action? Answer: your hand. The beginning of your pole plant moves everything else. Even if you don't overtly pole plant, like in high speed arc to arc carving or running gates, there is a gesture of a pole plant with the hand and arm. This is often neglected in these conversations. Your hands and arms are always in motion orchestrating your skiing. Even in a DH race tuck you'll see their arms together out in front leading and directing the rest of the racer's body.

Look at this video of Tom Gellie
Pause it at :30 and then step thru :30 - :31 one frame at a time using your period key ( you can o in reverse with comma key too ). As he is lightening his outside leg his outside hand and arm are moving to the new turn dragging the rib cage over his outside ski.


Same thing here ( the Topple video ) at :10-:11 seconds in this video

Same thing with Paul Lorenz here at :42-:43. It's harder to see with the snow spray and he doesn't pole plant, but there is a definite movement of the arm ( gesture of a pole plant )

Great points Scruffy. The hand/arm/ribcage all acting as a unit.
My coach from day one stressed that it all starts with a focus on the pole plant (he's USSA.)

 

[markojp]

What is the first upper body part that starts that chain of action? Answer: your hand. The beginning of your pole plant moves everything else. Even if you don't overtly pole plant, like in high speed arc to arc carving or running gates, there is a gesture of a pole plant with the hand and arm. This is often neglected in these conversations. Your hands and arms are always in motion orchestrating your skiing. Even in a DH race tuck you'll see their arms together out in front leading and directing the rest of the racer's body.

Look at this video of Tom Gellie
Pause it at :30 and then step thru :30 - :31 one frame at a time using your period key ( you can o in reverse with comma key too ). As he is lightening his outside leg his outside hand and arm are moving to the new turn dragging the rib cage over his outside ski.


Same thing here ( the Topple video ) at :10-:11 seconds in this video

Same thing with Paul Lorenz here at :42-:43. It's harder to see with the snow spray and he doesn't pole plant, but there is a definite movement of the arm ( gesture of a pole plant )

I really couldn't agree with this less for many, many reasons. This isn't to say one's pole plant doesn't enhance timing, DIRT, etc, and yes, it can be overlooked in training, but it isn't the root source of most skiers' problems. Its most often a symptom of the lack of other things happening than a cause. A rhetorical question, how would you explain world cup SL in the context of your argument? Or Mikaela training without poles when she's clearly working on moving accurately and in dynamic balance over her outside ski at the beginning of the turn?

 

[markojp]

Great points Scruffy. The hand/arm/ribcage all acting as a unit.
My coach from day one stressed that it all starts with a focus on the pole plant (he's USSA.)

We were taught that in the 70's. To the detriment of all else. So how does your coach teach? With a modern SL cross blocking movement? Leading with the arm not to hook a gate? Does he take you into the bumps? I'll work on pole plants only when I see that there's much greater awareness of what's happening with the feet. Please don't take this to mean total disagreement with building sensations through the ENTIRE body that help us get down the hill, but nothing starts with a pole plant. Take off your poles, wrap your arms around/hug yourself, and go ski. Choose a focus. Could be foot tipping, could be long leg/short leg, toppling, ribcage down the fall line, whatever. Do wedge turns, up and overs, one ski skiing, outside ski to outside ski, etc... did leaving poles at the too of the hill make anything less successful? Now, can pole plants enhance or be a detriment? Sure, but the aren't the source of good skiing, nor usually the source of poor.

 

[Steve]

@markojp I don't think he'd disagree, my training is all basic skiing, not race oriented. Combining his focus and Gellie's full body focus has been a great combination.

His pole plant focus is just related to opening up the body to the fall line and moving downhill.

It all works together.

 

[Scruffy]

I really couldn't agree with this less for many, many reasons. This isn't to say one's pole plant doesn't enhance timing, DIRT, etc, and yes, it can be overlooked in training, but it isn't the root source of most skiers' problems. Its most often a symptom of the lack of other things happening than a cause. A rhetorical question, how would you explain world cup SL in the context of your argument? Or Mikaela training without poles when she's clearly working on moving accurately and in dynamic balance over her outside ski at the beginning of the turn?

I didn't say pole plants was the root source any skiers problems. And, yes you can strap your arms and ski from the feet up, I have done that in race training, as well as skied without poles many times during training. We were talking about moving the rib cage over the outside ski during toppling, the hands ( if your using your poles ) typically move first. Look at the videos I posted and go frame by frame.

SL is a little different because you move your hands to clear gates. Look at any GS run where no overt pole plant is made; there is still a gesture of a "pole plant movement" with the arms. I still maintain that All high level skiing uses hands/arms in the form of pole plants or movements as if a pole plant was going to be made.

 

[Steve]

Oh and by the way @Scruffy thanks for the tip on the period and comma keys in YouTube. I often go to 25% speed, but didn't know I could go frame by frame. I've always downloaded YouTube videos so I could do that in another player.

 

[mdf]

Haha, I taught a clinic last week where we were imagining skiing without bindings, but with skate board grip tape. Skiing the bumps as if we were James Bond stuntmen standing on the skis from an exploded snowmobile.

Hah! Once I forgot that my large-footed son had used a certain pair of skis and did not reset the boot sole length. On my third bump run of the day I fell, and when I put my skis back on I realized that if I held my foot up and shook it, the skis could flop back and forth about 20 degrees to either side of straight. It wasn't a problem till I knew about it.

 

[geepers]

If you're throwing your a$$ inside the turn as your first move

Visualisation not right.

Upper part of upper body leads. Hips come later. Inclination at the top of the turn with angulation delayed.

 

[geepers]

What is the first upper body part that starts that chain of action? Answer: your hand. The beginning of your pole plant moves everything else. Even if you don't overtly pole plant, like in high speed arc to arc carving or running gates, there is a gesture of a pole plant with the hand and arm. This is often neglected in these conversations. Your hands and arms are always in motion orchestrating your skiing. Even in a DH race tuck you'll see their arms together out in front leading and directing the rest of the racer's body.

Look at this video of Tom Gellie
Pause it at :30 and then step thru :30 - :31 one frame at a time using your period key ( you can o in reverse with comma key too ). As he is lightening his outside leg his outside hand and arm are moving to the new turn dragging the rib cage over his outside ski.


Same thing here ( the Topple video ) at :10-:11 seconds in this video

Same thing with Paul Lorenz here at :42-:43. It's harder to see with the snow spray and he doesn't pole plant, but there is a definite movement of the arm ( gesture of a pole plant )

Then again snow boarders carve and transition very well without poles.

If angulation keeps increasing, especially through the last 1/3 of the turn then the lateral balance will end up biased to the outside of the turn just as the skis, still on edge, come back to the body. The pole plant may assist getting the upper body into the right position or it can happen with no poles.

Edit: Which mean the body will topple out of the old turn and into the new.

As skiers are bipedal it's not the only way to change the lateral balance. Works well though.

 

[Noodler]

Oh and by the way @Scruffy thanks for the tip on the period and comma keys in YouTube. I often go to 25% speed, but didn't know I could go frame by frame. I've always downloaded YouTube videos so I could do that in another player.

Those same keys also change the video playback speed when you use the shift key with them (the < > keys).

 

[Scruffy]

Then again snow boarders carve and transition very well without poles.

If angulation keeps increasing, especially through the last 1/3 of the turn then the lateral balance will end up biased to the outside of the turn just as the skis, still on edge, come back to the body. The pole plant may assist getting the upper body into the right position or it can happen with no poles.

Edit: Which mean the body will topple out of the old turn and into the new.

As skiers are bipedal it's not the only way to change the lateral balance. Works well though.

This isn't really about poles per se , it's about disciplined upper body movements. We've all skied without poles in lessons, clinics, etc.. so that's well established, no need to beat that horse. The hand, arm, and shoulder weighs maybe 8-10 lbs. Your shoulder will lead your upper body in a lateral move out of the turn during toppling regardless. If you don't have your arm/hand strapped down you need to discipline it's movement as per usual. All great skiers, even when they're not actually planting the pole, as in a GS racer running a course or Paul Lorenz in that vid I posted above, will still use their hand and arm to lead them out of the turn, as if they were pole planting, but perhaps the move is subtle, but there nonetheless. So my posts on this subject was to recognize this and use it wisely. We typically don't give hand/arms much thought in these high level skiing threads ( and make no mistake, toppling is a higher level topic ).

As to snowboarders, I don't know enough about that subject to comment much, only to say that from what I view of them they seem to also user their arms to initiate turns.

 

[geepers]

I expect we're mostly in agreement on this. Aiming to plant a pole on the downhill side of a mogul is a classic example.

TG's point was that the rib cage has a lot of mass associated with it. All the internal organs plus head and arms. Much heavier than the legs. My own experience is that it may not be necessary to think ribcage as long as separation and angulation from the previous turn are retained into transition. Biasing balance to the outside of the turn was effective for toppling out. The ribcage cue was too late for the Oz ski season but the quick transition that @Mike King mentions happened anyway. I have minimal pole moves in high speed turns as well - something I need to fix - so it's not absolutely necessary either.

Maybe it all works even better with ribcage cue AND pole move.

Unfortunately the IOC beat you to it by blocking play of that snowboard vid.