Toppling

[slowrider]

Thank you LF. I've been working on blending those movements. Just wanted to see what others thought.

 

[geepers]

But toppling, at least in the new CSIA term, doesn't use the top half of the kinetic chain first.

It is an upperbody movement, but the movement is a result, an outcome. What initiates it is lightening the new inside leg. If done right, it's a way to put pressure on the new outside ski higher up in the turn, allowing rounder turns and more grip.

Tom Gellie has just released a new vid on toppling. Specifically leading the way with the rib cage (and all that nice heavy stuff inside it). It leads whilst the skis stay on edge continuing the turn. in due course the legs will follow along. Also goes out of his way to describe the difference between the moves he describes and your typical upper body rotator.

TG is not CSIA of course. So interested to hear what's being said around the campfire.

 

[TheArchitect]

I started reading Ultimate Skiing this afternoon and thought of this thread when I saw this page

 

[rustypouch]

Is retraction and tipping part of lighting the new inside leg?

Yeah, it all kind of happens at the same time. Pretty much retracting the inside leg initiates and controls how much you topple, tipping affects edge angles, and retracting the inside ski also controls angulation.

 

[rustypouch]

Tom Gellie has just released a new vid on toppling. Specifically leading the way with the rib cage (and all that nice heavy stuff inside it). It leads whilst the skis stay on edge continuing the turn. in due course the legs will follow along. Also goes out of his way to describe the difference between the moves he describes and your typical upper body rotator.

TG is not CSIA of course. So interested to hear what's being said around the campfire.

I haven't watched any of those vids. There's still been no mention of leading with anything but the feet that I've heard. The CoM follows the feet, even if it's following *very* closely.

 

[Mike King]

I haven't watched any of those vids. There's still been no mention of leading with anything but the feet that I've heard. The CoM follows the feet, even if it's following *very* closely.

You can lead with the CoM instead of the feet. Watch WC skiers and you will see that. And what Tom is suggesting is leading with the CoM, not the feet.

I took Tom's ribcage move out over the past three days. It's pretty amazing how quickly it initiates a turn -- it's explosive: the edge change is very quick, the new edge is established early, and you can establish higher edge angles.

Mike

 

[Steve]

The ribcage video is fantastic. All these years of resisting using the upper body. Tom has liberated us.

In his multi part separation video he describes an almost uncoiling starting at the feet, moving up the legs to the thighs, and upper body as the body separates and angulates.

In the ribcage video this uncoiling then moves it's way down the body, starting with a subtle ribcage lateral and rotational movement, moving down the body until the feet turn.

I love it!

 

[Noodler]

I guess I need to go watch the new ribcage video...

 

[geepers]

Anyone else get 3 or 4 minutes of blank-screen and music at the end of that vid? Kept waiting for some extra insight...

I haven't watched any of those vids. There's still been no mention of leading with anything but the feet that I've heard. The CoM follows the feet, even if it's following *very* closely.

Guess it comes down to this question. In an an L3 Teach exam, a candidate does rib cage 1st as a tactic for at least one of the 'students' AND the skiing improves would that candidate be failed? (If the 'student' skiing doesn't improve it won't matter what was said...)

 

[Steve]

There are 5 minutes of left the music running.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Ok in reading this thread, I going to call the next ski method Weebles, because when we ski correctly we wobble and don’t fall down.

 

[James]

The ribcage video is fantastic. All these years of resisting using the upper body. Tom has liberated us.

Omg. Sorry, no.

 

[Steve]

Ha ha ha ha

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Is this ribcage video behind a paywall? I'm feeling curious. Not sure if it's morbid curiosity or the regular kind.

 

[Noodler]

Is this ribcage video behind a paywall? I'm feeling curious. Not sure if it's morbid curiosity or the regular kind.

Yes, you must be a subscriber.

 

[rustypouch]

You can lead with the CoM instead of the feet. Watch WC skiers and you will see that. And what Tom is suggesting is leading with the CoM, not the feet.

I took Tom's ribcage move out over the past three days. It's pretty amazing how quickly it initiates a turn -- it's explosive: the edge change is very quick, the new edge is established early, and you can establish higher edge angles.

Mike

Of course. All sorts of ways to start a turn. I'm just going by CSIA methodology.

 

[rustypouch]

Anyone else get 3 or 4 minutes of blank-screen and music at the end of that vid? Kept waiting for some extra insight...




Guess it comes down to this question. In an an L3 Teach exam, a candidate does rib cage 1st as a tactic for at least one of the 'students' AND the skiing improves would that candidate be failed? (If the 'student' skiing doesn't improve it won't matter what was said...)

In that case, I'm not sure if the candidate would fail. It might count as a point against them, trying a movement pattern that doesn't follow current doctrine.

Keep in mind, in the L3 teach exam, whether the 'student' improves or not doesn't really matter. What matters (among many other things) is if the candidate correctly identifies something that could be improved, and an appropriate way to do so.

 

[James]

There's still been no mention of leading with anything but the feet that I've heard. The CoM follows the feet, even if it's following *very* closely.

So, what happens when you tip the feet and the body is still uphill?

 

[JESinstr]

@slowrider, one can do three things at once, as a single but complex move.
The body will topple, edges will change, new turn will start.

Bingo! By doing certain things or by doing certain other things, THE BODY WILL TOPPLE ...but I am not conciously toppling for toppling's sake. If anything, toppling is a result.

 

[JESinstr]

I am concern that undo confusion is being created.

Coming out of the carving state, the body is aligned and in balanced with the outside ski. The soon to be new outside ski is ahead of the old outside ski (tip lead) so one needs to move their COM forward to become aligned with the new OS and (Duh) since most of our mass is in the upper body, it makes sense that we should project our mass forward. But all this has to do with alignment of mass not initiating turning force. This is especially evident in an ILE transition. And without further adieu.