Toppling

[James]

They’ll be no toppling if there’s not an imbalance. You can cut a tree down and it can sit right there on the chainsaw.
It can also topple the opposite way you intended.

Trees can be toppled from above, with wind or snow or ice, or from below- cutting.
Now, if the ground is too soft to hold the roots, and wind or snow comes along and topples it, is that toppling from above or below?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....When I look up the word and see all the associated words, I draw the conclusion that the cause of toppling is a breakdown of the Base of Support and for skiing this does indeed make sense. What I find lacking in this discussion is the multiple ways this can happen.

I think of this "breakdown of the base of support" as a loss of the platform provided by the outside ski. It's a release. Multiple ways this can happen:

ILE (old inside leg extension) aka Extension Turn
The skier extends this leg, which brings the old inside hip above it upward. If the skier does nothing else, the upper body goes upward too. The inside/uphill half of the body goes up, the head and torso move up and over, across the skis, and the skis flatten then tip onto downhill edges. The extension does not have to "push" the body over the skis because the platform is lost as soon as the body moves a little bit towards the outside of the turn; momentum carries the upper body across the skis. The skier can minimize the upward movement to control of unwanted effects of unweighting by flexing the new inside leg as this cross-over happens. The head (home to the inner ear vestibular system) goes up and over and down, and as it goes down (under the power of gravity!) that sense of toppling is pretty clearly felt.

OLR (old outside leg relaxation) aka Flexion turn
The skier flexes the old outside/new inside/downhill leg, which lowers the hip above it and the side of the torso above that. If the skier does nothing else, the body tilts sideways, head first, downhill over the skis. As this happens, the skis start to flatten, and the platform is lost. The released torso moves across the skis under the power of momentum and the skis flip onto new downhill edges. Does the skier feel the topple (aka does topple occur)? Yes, because the head still goes down when the CoM is released. Gravity is still at work. If the skier chooses to get inside faster by raising the new outside shoulder and/or arm to incline the whole body, Ted Ligety style for instance, the toppling will be felt more strongly.

RETRACTION TURN
The skier flexes both legs to down-unweight (remember that term?), lifting/lightening both feet, and as the underfoot pressure is lessened, moves both feet/skis from one side to the other under the body. This is a movement used in short radius turns where the line followed by the skier's torso does not move much to the left and right. The CoM travels more straight down the hill while the feet/skis go left-right under the body. No sensation of toppling happens because when the platform disappears the CoM remains upright above the skis. The head does not drop.

Notes about terminology usage
ILE and OLR are terms created by Rick Schnellman some time back. Extension Turn and Flexion Turn are more commonly used here on this forum. A Retraction Turn is not now and has never been the same thing as a Flexion Turn/OLR turn, but people seem to be conflating those two frequently.

 

[Steve]

So what you can only be advocating is a top down bio mechanical release movement pattern. While I have no issues with this, it does bring into question the long held belief that we ski from the bottom up. Should that concept/belief now be be re-examined?

I am re-examining that. Gellie's video on the use of arms in skiing was hugely influential on me. In addition a USSA coach I work with showed me some WC skiers also using their arms/shoulders the way Gellie showed.

Starting, or at the least adding to, the crossover with the new outside arm coming up.

Other things too. We use our whole bodies, in a coordinated way. The UB creates potentially way too much influence and we have to be careful not to screw things up below with it moving too much.

But. It's a part of the system and can help to make things happen. Why not use it?

 

[Steve]

I just edited that to correct an error. "..the new outside arm coming up." (not "inside")

 

[JESinstr]

I think of this "breakdown of the base of support" as a loss of the platform provided by the outside ski. It's a release. Multiple ways this can happen:

ILE (old inside leg extension) aka Extension Turn
The skier extends this leg, which brings the old inside hip above it upward. If the skier does nothing else, the upper body goes upward too. The inside/uphill half of the body goes up, the head and torso move up and over, across the skis, and the skis flatten then tip onto downhill edges. The extension does not have to "push" the body over the skis because the platform is lost as soon as the body moves a little bit towards the outside of the turn; momentum carries the upper body across the skis. The skier can minimize the upward movement to control of unwanted effects of unweighting by flexing the new inside leg as this cross-over happens. The head (home to the inner ear vestigial system) goes up and over and down, and as it goes down (under the power of gravity!) that sense of toppling is pretty clearly felt.

OLR (old outside leg relaxation) aka Flexion turn
The skier flexes the old outside/new inside/downhill leg, which lowers the hip above it and the side of the torso above that. If the skier does nothing else, the body tilts sideways, head first, downhill over the skis. As this happens, the skis start to flatten, and the platform is lost. The released torso moves across the skis under the power of momentum and the skis flip onto new downhill edges. Does the skier feel the topple (aka does topple occur)? Yes, because the head still goes down when the CoM is released. Gravity is still at work. If the skier chooses to get inside faster by raising the new outside shoulder and/or arm to incline the whole body, Ted Ligety style for instance, the toppling will be felt more strongly.

RETRACTION TURN
The skier flexes both legs to down-unweight (remember that term?), lifting/lightening both feet, and as the underfoot pressure is lessened, moves both feet/skis from one side to the other under the body. This is a movement used in short radius turns where the line followed by the skier's torso does not move much to the left and right. The CoM travels more straight down the hill while the feet/skis go left-right under the body. No sensation of toppling happens because when the platform disappears the CoM remains upright above the skis. The head does not drop.

Notes about terminology usage
ILE and OLR are terms created by Rick Schnellman some time back. Extension Turn and Flexion Turn are more commonly used here on this forum. A Retraction Turn is not now and has never been the same thing as a Flexion Turn/OLR turn, but people seem to be conflating those two frequently.

LF, Thanks for the descriptions. My only comment is that I think Rick did an eloquent and thorough job at defining ILE. And although I agree that we can benefit from a more generic family of transition descriptions, I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As to your opening statement, I think the powerful end to end carving scenario that the ILE sets up is the only transition technique in which turn completion does not fall victim to loss of the old outside ski platform. ILE finishes the old turn on the uphill/outside edge of the old inside ski. When it come to carving, I think we should be more specific about the edges being the BOS platform than just referring to the ski. I think this is also an important distinction to address with beginners as they learn what it takes to make wedge turns.

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF, Thanks for the descriptions. My only comment is that I think Rick did an eloquent and thorough job at defining ILE. And although I agree that we can benefit from a more generic family of transition descriptions, I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As to your opening statement, I think the powerful end to end carving scenario that the ILE sets up is the only transition technique in which turn completion does not fall victim to loss of the old outside ski platform. ILE finishes the old turn on the uphill/outside edge of the old inside ski. When it come to carving, I think we should be more specific about the edges being the BOS platform than just referring to the ski. I think this is also an important distinction to address with beginners as they learn what it takes to make wedge turns.

@JESinstr I always use OLR/flexion to start my arc-to-arc carved turns. No loss of platform happens. None. Just letting you know it works that way too, not just the ILE way.

The OLR is deeply embedded in my skiing now. I've worked with it for most of my ski life. I have to think consciously to do ILE, but I can do it and have used it to demonstrate the difference, one short segment of a run done with ILE and one short segment OLR. The difference is clear for all to see.

I'll try ILE for carved turns if I ever get on snow this season (it's getting more doubtful by the day). I have no doubt ILE works on low pitch groomers, and I am no speed demon so I don't do arc-to-arc on pitches that would normally be classified as "steep." Do you? I'd expect flexion would be better there as solid contact between new outside ski and snow would be more reliable during initiation.

I sometimes use ILE for slow short turns on groomers that employ tail deflection as a speed control mechanism. I've used it in bumps, but now prefer OLR for all my bump skiing. Otherwise I get my absorb-extend timing off.

 

[Skitechniek]

Yeah, not buying it. Obviously there’s no direction change until the edges hook up, but where is the body when that happens? There’s just not enough time to wait till the edges are engaged to move your body that far inside for those high g turns. Sure, many times the legs do move out as well. In moving towards the inside of the turn early, the skiers are essentially making a bet that the skis will support them.
in the flush it’s clear the legs just move under the body. But there’s almost no direction change in a flush.
This is where Tom Gellie’s exaggeration of not making that bet of being inside your skis comes in. When he demoed it in that previous video. He’s staying over his skis waiting for his edges to change him in the non toppling demo.

View attachment 116413
From the same Mikaela video in slomotion. In that turn, that’s pretty much the moment the edges hook up. She’s already way inside.

Just because your body is inside before the fall line, doesn't mean you are toppling. I never argued against edge angle before the fall line, completely different thing. And the first skier you are talking about was airborne, her legs therefore could move to the outside of the turn, while her upper body relatively speaking remained in it's place.

The edge angle Mikaela is displaying before the fall line is also easily attainable without toppling. Little edge angle, and her ski's are already almost in the fall line.

^This is toppling. Look how far inside he is before the fall line:

You are almost never going to see that in a race course, apart from Beaver Creek maybe. But normally you're better of stivoting instead of having so much edge angle this early on.

So yes, I still don't get it. Apart from that it's a lot fun, what does this do? I always ski radius 30 or 35, for me toppling on a ski with that much radius really doesn't work, but I'd love to see someone make it work.

 

[Blue Streak]

See, here is the problem: it comes down to semantics. Whatever term you pick, it has all sorts of connotations that come along with it, and based on whatever perspective the listener comes from, their experience will influence how they interpret the term. The unfortunate part of that is that the intent of the term, which has all sorts of aspects relating to the duration, intensity, rate, and timing, are lost or muddled because the listener's frame of reference has influenced (co-opted?) their receptivity to the concept.

With that being said, here's my understanding of toppling, at least as described and advocated by Tom Gellie. The purpose of toppling is to maintain/establish the earliest pressure on the ski in the top of the turn. By releasing the upper body from it's arc prior to releasing the skis from theirs, the body can lead into the top of the turn. And if the release of the body is down the hill, rather than up and over, pressure on the outside ski will be earlier than if the body travels up and then down -- the up and down movement has to result in. a longer path of travel, so pressure will be later. Also, using the toppling transition results in a higher line with more options at the next gate.

Gellie has a lot of content on his website demonstrating toppling in World Cup athletes, including Mikeala, Hirscher, Robinson, etc. I suggest you take a look at it and see what you take away. It does us no good to argue over whether we like or dislike a term when no one is really talking about the complex mechanics that that term was intended to describe.

Mike

Excellent precis.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr I always use OLR/flexion to start my arc-to-arc carved turns. No loss of platform happens. None. Just letting you know it works that way too, not just the ILE way.

The OLR is deeply embedded in my skiing now. I've worked with it for most of my ski life. I have to think consciously to do ILE, but I can do it and have used it to demonstrate the difference, one short segment of a run done with ILE and one short segment OLR. The difference is clear for all to see.

I'll try ILE for carved turns if I ever get on snow this season (it's getting more doubtful by the day). I have no doubt ILE works on low pitch groomers, and I am no speed demon so I don't do arc-to-arc on pitches that would normally be classified as "steep." Do you? I'd expect flexion would be better there as solid contact between new outside ski and snow would be more reliable during initiation.

I sometimes use ILE for slow short turns on groomers that employ tail deflection as a speed control mechanism. I've used it in bumps, but now prefer OLR for all my bump skiing. Otherwise I get my absorb-extend timing off.

Just so we are not talking past one another, what kind of transition is Shiffrin attempting to initiate beginning at 13 sec?

 

[geepers]

(Plus, couldn’t resist a shot a Gellie. Now, since you’re married to a Kiwi, could you possibly send whatever secret smoke signals they use to communicate, and get him to edit his cell phone videos? Editing and him not appearing would be even better. There’s only so many lobotomies I can take Btw, that on snow toppling vid was ok in that respect. Maybe just keep his clothes on and be on snow?)

To Gellie is an Aussie who lives in Sydney. Here's some handy hints for picking New Zealanders from Australians. (No doubt @Turoa Kiwi knows a heap more....)

1. New Zealanders finish nearly every sentence with "Eh, bro." If that's the only thing in the sentence you'll know it's your shout and buy them a beer.
2. New Zealanders say "sux". As in 1, ,2, 3, 4, 5, sux, 7, 8...
3. New Zealanders "fush and chups" when ordering a gourmet seafood meal. (Actually NZ fish and chips are pretty damn good.)

The upshot is - is toppling something that happens merely because you flexed your leg or tipped your foot, or something you’ve made happen by managing your upper body? Or, god forbid, both?

I'm in the group that says both or either depending on what I intend to do.

Tom's going to spread it. His stuff will catch on and spread throughout the ski instructional world.
I must admit I am not going to watch that 50 minute lecture.

Doubt anyone is going to make it compulsory.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Just so we are not talking past one another, what kind of transition is Shiffrin attempting to initiate beginning at 13 sec?

Monitor where each knee is relative to the hip above it. The new inside knee comes up and the new outside knee goes down. It's a blend of OLR and ILE. Knee-to-hip changes are usually visible no matter where the camera is.

Why do you want to reference a video? How about referencing what you do personally?

 

[HardDaysNight]

The new inside knee comes up and the new outside knee goes down. It's a blend of OLR and ILE.

Isn’t this what typically happens in a “default” transition? One leg gets shorter, the other longer. Unless there’s some specific, situational need e.g., absorbing terrain, etc.

 

[Tony S]

toppling is a breakdown of the Base of Support

I was stacking wood the other day and that's exactly what happened. Ground was soft after a rain, fill in the rest. It all took place so exquisitely slowly, and yet unstoppably.

Allow me to present my credentials as a member of POEM (the Professional Organization of English Majors) and speculate on why the word "topple" is used in the present context. It's meant to suggest a lack of resistance or pushback. You don't make it happen; you allow it to happen. It reflects the psychology of the move as much as or more than the physics of it. It's the psychology of "go," not the psychology of "no." No matter how experienced and skilled the skier, that atavistic inclination to rear back and haul on the reins when things get steeper or faster always lurks in the shadows.

The head (home to the inner ear vestigial system) goes up and over and down, and as it goes down (under the power of gravity!) that sense of toppling is pretty clearly felt.

My inner ear system may be vestigial - why I have to take meclizine when skiing - but presumably yours is vestibular.

ILE finishes the old turn on the uphill/outside edge of the old inside ski.

[Begin pedant alert. Okay, maybe pedant alert number 2.] Meaning the little toe edge, right? (The problem with inside/outside is that you have to be clear whether you're talking about the inside/outside of a turn or whether you're using it to distinguish between medial and lateral. "Outside edge" can mean the little toe edge of either ski, or it can mean the big toe edge of the ski on the outside of a turn.) [End pedant alert.]

I always ski radius 30 or 35,

Huh? Explain.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
My inner ear system may be vestigial - why I have to take meclizine when skiing - but presumably yours is vestibular....

LOL. Did I really do that?

 

[François Pugh]

As an English speaker, topple implies two things to me: 1. The movement that is no longer being restrained; and 2. A pivoting about some sort of fulcrum.

 

[mister moose]

Toppling to me sounds uncommanded, uncontrolled, something we wouldn't ascribe to talented skiers. It sounds like what happens when you lose at Jenga. Toppling sounds like your COM is imminently going to hit the ground. I like anticipation, leading with your mass, or maybe directional anticipation. But I carry no such POEM credentials.

 

[JESinstr]

Monitor where each knee is relative to the hip above it. The new inside knee comes up and the new outside knee goes down. It's a blend of OLR and ILE. Knee-to-hip changes are usually visible no matter where the camera is.

Why do you want to reference a video? How about referencing what you do personally?

Your too funny... defensive maybe? I was just trying to discern if we are using different terms to talk about the same thing.

I do what I need to do for the situation at hand. Although losing a bit to age, I try and pride myself on having the skills level to address what comes my way. And that's just what Shiffrin is doing. She isn't thinking "hmm better use ILE here and OLR there", she is just trying to use her gifted skill set to win the race.

But we all need a base technique and IMO, the purpose of the modern ski's design is to create a circular/arc/Centripetal path and my position is that the technique that offers the shortest, cleanest, most direct and most solid edge transfer is a prereq for all the other transitional implementations. For me my base technique is ILE. IMO, the single, simple hallmark of this technique is that the skier re-balances and finishes the previous/old turn on the uphill edge of old inside ski in a position that allows said ski to be seamlessly rolled to the new outside ski edge. And yes, that roll to the new outside ski edge can even include, ahhhh a Toppling motion. An example of low end execution of ILE is the "Get over it" Drill. A high end execution can be seen in Ligety's sequential stills starting with the 4th image in from the left. When I am working with fellow instructors, I quickly learn a lot about their total skills level when I get them to give the "Get over it" drill a try.

As @HardDaysNight stated above... from the observer Frame of Reference, one leg gets longer as the other gets shorter. But what leg is driving the train in pursuit of efficient circular travel? That is the real question and it may not be the leg you think.

 

[tomgellie]

As an English speaker, topple implies two things to me: 1. The movement that is no longer being restrained; and 2. A pivoting about some sort of fulcrum.

This is probably the simplest definition of what I was trying to get across when using toppling. Almost any word you choose someone will have negative connotations with just as others get a lightbulb moment with. So in real life I would use other words and examples to get across what I’m trying to convey that are best suited to that person. And I’d need to get to know them first and develop a trusting relationship in order to find out what those descriptions and words would be.

james I’m sorry you need a lobotomy with every video of mine you watch and I’ll keep my clothes on for you. Don’t think I’ve had my clothes off in any videos over the last few years???

 

[Skitechniek]

@Tony S
Explain what?

@tomgellie
Really cool that you responded!
Am I understanding the concept correctly if I equate toppling to upper body inclination early in the turn?

 

[dj61]

Good point dj61, but even in that Mikaela video she's toppling doing slalom turns. All but on the flushes.

agree