Toppling

[tomgellie]

Lol, thanks for the response!
Well, for me there’s a correlation between amount of clothes on and quality of watching the video. Correlation isn’t causation, but maybe on snow encourages a more cogent presentation. I do exaggerate.
But, tbh, haven’t watched that many of the fully clothed ones on snow. as the others. Comes down to editing on the cell phone ones probably. I have certainly enjoyed the podcasts over the years.

As to topple, it’s certainly been around for many years. My issue is it implies a singular event, as in people get to the transition and now it’s time to topple. But that’s too late. The crossing over of the body path to the ski path might happen at a singular time, but the skier has to prepare well before. It’s a movement pattern over time. No doubt that’s in your subscription video.
So, we reduce a movement pattern to one word.
Trees can topple if you cut the base of support. It only topples in the direction you want if it’s unbalanced that way. If the skier is too far uphill, releasing base of support won’t topple the body downhill. More of the lack of preparation.
Trees can sway so much from the movement of the top they overwhelm the base of support, and topple. Seems to me the toppling in skiing is a combination of the two. There are times when you can just sway the top over, and times you need to do both. But if the top of the tree isn’t heading where you want it, releasing the bottom won’t work as intended.
Maybe that’s how Davo Karnicar, skier of Mt Everest, died cutting a tree this fall. Very sad.

View attachment 116496
NY Times, Golob/Anzenberger, via Redux
Karnicar on Everest. No big toppling wanted! Truly insane. Don’t want the top too far ahead of the base, just enough to reestablish the base quickly.


Too chopped. Also in that edit, the video spends a significant amount of time on what not to do. Maybe because they don’t want to give away the answer. Usually people remember and do that.

The tree is but one example. Don’t read too much into this one example otherwise you’ll lose what I’m really trying to get across. It’s a concept

 

[Lifer]

Mario Matt (AUT) had a very successful career 'toppling' with the first generation of short, shaped SL skis.

His brother Michael skis similarly - and currently - with very impressive success too - also in SL - His COM does appear to consistently 'topple' across the diverging path of his skis - via shortening the old outside leg to release - and a very deliberate, accurate inversion of the new inside foot - resulting in a clean, highly edged new inside ski - while outside ski pressure is building and established to dominate by fall line entry.

Either Matt should be easy to find on Youtube.

 

[Prosper]

As a recreational skier with lots of interest in improving but only a SkiTalk technical background, reading some of the heavy technical back and forth is a bit mind numbing. How do I know if I’m toppling or not toppling when skiing? Could a typical PSIA level 3 instructor perform that analysis correctly?

 

[markojp]

As a recreational skier with lots of interest in improving but only a SkiTalk technical background, reading some of the heavy technical back and forth is a bit mind numbing. How do I know if I’m toppling or not toppling when skiing? Could a typical PSIA level 3 instructor perform that analysis correctly?

Some yes, others no, and still some more who might describe it with a different word.

 

[JESinstr]

As a recreational skier with lots of interest in improving but only a SkiTalk technical background, reading some of the heavy technical back and forth is a bit mind numbing. How do I know if I’m toppling or not toppling when skiing? Could a typical PSIA level 3 instructor perform that analysis correctly?

So I got out yesterday on opening day and spent some time playing around with this "Toppling" Concept as Tom Gilles puts it.

Well, to the best of my knowledge, I have been (and probably most of you have been) always toppling. I just didn't call it that. To me, it's just part of my initiation sequence in the direction of intended travel.

While I can understand the term Toppling, I am not 100 percent embracing it because (IMO) this "Feeling" of toppling is highly dependent on velocity, slope and the skill levels needed to develop and support the turning force aka carving. The faster I am going and the steeper the slope, the more I can embrace and realize the concept. So I am OK with this when working with upper level skiers but no way will I use the terminology with the lower levels.

 

[geepers]

Interesting vid from the snowboard guy Tom Gellie used to make a point re transitions and toppling. This one highlighted in a TG FB post so he's obviously cool with the imbedded content.

Clip cued to play from where he discusses how TG's MA (done for skiers) is helping his snowboarding then shows the TG MA segment. Play from beginning to see some nice snowboard carving.

 

[Noodler]

Much more description from @tomgellie of the toppling principle. However, IMHO, he's still not sharing the key ski turn principle that makes toppling possible. What isn't he mentioning?

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^ @Noodler, your question "What isn't he mentioning?" got me thinking.

Tom focuses on the word "relax" in this video. He talks about relaxing the old outside leg - early and fast. The other word he focuses on in this video is "topple." He goes to some length to explain and demonstrate what he means by topple. He makes its meaning pretty clear with multiple examples.

But he does not use specific words or phrasing for what this word "relax" means. He does shift back and forth some between using the word "release" and "relax" for the same movement pattern. But there are different ways to release so I've focused on his choice of "relax" to explain the release mechanism that he is teaching.

He doesn't mention doing anything with specific body parts as he relaxes that old outside leg - no mention of ankles, knees, or hips, shins or thighs. He does not use the verbs flex, extend, tip, angulate, incline. I do find this absence odd since he's so invested in biomechanics.

He must have made the choice to keep his message very simple by limiting his terminology. That's always a good idea. Shifting from one word to another to describe the same thing and overloading viewers with technical terms are a recipe for confusion. The fewer terms and the more consistent, the better.

A lot of instructors use the word "relax" for this kind of release, and it must work for some people. Discussions here of what "topple" means make it clear that people are not all on the same page with this term, but watching this video should clarify what Tom means by it.

Years ago when I was first learning to carve, the direction to "relax" (the old outside leg) didn't work for me. I needed something more specific. But I'm talking about when I didn't know yet how to initiate and hold a carve. This video is not targeting such skiers. It's meant for good skiers who already know how to carve but haven't gotten their hips to snow yet, haven't gotten early edge engagement and very high edge angles above the fall line, and who want to do this at high speeds on steeper slopes. These skiers haven't yet experienced the exhilaration of toppling. The terms relax and topple, along with the video images, may work just fine for these skiers.

 

[Noodler]

^^ @Noodler, your question "What isn't he mentioning?" got me thinking.

Tom focuses on the word "relax" in this video. He talks about relaxing the old outside leg - early and fast. The other word he focuses on in this video is "topple." He goes to some length to explain and demonstrate what he means by topple. He makes its meaning pretty clear with multiple examples.

But he does not use specific words or phrasing for what this word "relax" means. He does shift back and forth some between using the word "release" and "relax" for the same movement pattern. But there are different ways to release so I've focused on his choice of "relax" to explain the release mechanism that he is teaching.

He doesn't mention doing anything with specific body parts as he relaxes that old outside leg - no mention of ankles, knees, or hips, shins or thighs. He does not use the verbs flex, extend, tip, angulate, incline. I do find this absence odd since he's so invested in biomechanics.

He must have made the choice to keep his message very simple by limiting his terminology. That's always a good idea. Shifting from one word to another to describe the same thing and overloading viewers with technical terms are a recipe for confusion. The fewer terms and the more consistent, the better.

A lot of instructors use the word "relax" for this kind of release, and it must work for some people. Discussions here of what "topple" means make it clear that people are not all on the same page with this term, but watching this video should clarify what Tom means by it.

Years ago when I was first learning to carve, the direction to "relax" (the old outside leg) didn't work for me. I needed something more specific. But I'm talking about when I didn't know yet how to initiate and hold a carve. This video is not targeting such skiers. It's meant for good skiers who already know how to carve but haven't gotten their hips to snow yet, haven't gotten early edge engagement and very high edge angles above the fall line, and who want to do this at high speeds on steeper slopes. These skiers haven't yet experienced the exhilaration of toppling. The terms relax and topple, along with the video images, may work just fine for these skiers.

You're keying on some of my pet peeves about his instruction style. I really like the ideas he is surfacing, but he doesn't teach from a "movements perspective". I have an obvious bias towards wanting to understand the movements in any instruction, so the lack of the specifics about how to "relax" (as you state) are an annoyance in his instruction. What I believe Tom is referring to is the relaxation of the "pressure" you will feel on the outside stance ski. He refers to the pressure as often as the relaxation and the toppling. So I think he is advising that the release of the pressure through relaxation will commence the topple. He's got it, almost...

What he's missing is the balance part of the equation. If you're leaning in on the turn (banking into the hill) and you release the pressure on the stance ski, you are most likely not going to topple your body down the fall line. With insufficient counterbalancing, the toppling will not be strong in my opinion. For many skiers to get the toppling transition to work, they will have to do a much better job in managing their balance over the outside stance ski. More angulation is needed to ensure you get toppling out of a flex to release. This is the part I wish he would discuss when he speaks about toppling.

 

[Steve]

He very much discusses angulation. He has more than one video about it.
He believes in what I call multi-part separation. As each part rotates separately it creates angulation.
Lower legs create knee angulation
Upper legs create hip angulation
Middle body
Upper body
Head

Angulation is created by separation. You are not inclined late in the turn, you develop angulation, starting with the lower legs and spiraling up the body until you are angulated into the beginning of the topple.

 

[François Pugh]

If relax your outside leg doesn't work for you, maybe try "let your outside leg go limp, cease and desist from applying any muscular force to or with that leg."

 

[Noodler]

He very much discusses angulation. He has more than one video about it.
He believes in what I call multi-part separation. As each part rotates separately it creates angulation.
Lower legs create knee angulation
Upper legs create hip angulation
Middle body
Upper body
Head

Angulation is created by separation. You are not inclined late in the turn, you develop angulation, starting with the lower legs and spiraling up the body until you are angulated into the beginning of the topple.

Steve - not talking about all of his videos taken together from the membership site. I was specifically referring to the video I posted where he actually discusses toppling more in-depth than the toppling video on his membership site. Of course he discusses angulation, however, I don't believe he has ever stated that correct angulation (to achieve counterbalancing) is required to actually effect the topple.

 

[Noodler]

Ideas and philosophies about skiing are great and foster lots of discussion. However, at the end of the day, to put those thoughts and ideas into action requires actual movements of our body parts. Demand more from your instruction and ask the "hard" questions about how to actually accomplish the skiing "idea". What are the internal cues? What are the external cues? What muscles are involved? I could go on and on,....

 

[Steve]

He has what 40 or 50 hours of material? I've only seen maybe 30. Hard to say he hasn't ever stated it.

 

[Steve]

Ideas and philosophies about skiing are great and foster lots of discussion. However, at the end of the day, to put those thoughts and ideas into action requires actual movements of our body parts. Demand more from your instruction and ask the "hard" questions about how to actually accomplish the skiing "idea". What are the internal cues? What are the external cues? What muscles are involved? I could go on and on,....

I completely agree, hence my retarded development from the scattershot coaching I've received from PSIA.

Tom's discussions of biomechanics and how they effect ski performance were life changing for me, just based on the 4 days I've skied so far this year. I have a deep understanding of the movements that I never had before from his material. So whatever he's lacking (and of course he is lacking things) is made up by the effectiveness of his use of examples, metaphors, off-snow demonstrations.

For those of us who learn well from his approach that is.

 

[Steve]

His free material is very different. His functional body free material, where he shows for example how the subtalar joint works, are more of a taste of what his paid material contains.

 

[Noodler]

His free material is very different. His functional body free material, where he shows for example how the subtalar joint works, are more of a taste of what his paid material contains.

I am on the membership site too. I've probably watched about 9 or 10 of the videos so far. I think I've watched everything he's got about carving, transition, toppling, etc. That's the basis for my commentary.

 

[Noodler]

I completely agree, hence my retarded development from the scattershot coaching I've received from PSIA.

Tom's discussions of biomechanics and how they effect ski performance were life changing for me, just based on the 4 days I've skied so far this year. I have a deep understanding of the movements that I never had before from his material. So whatever he's lacking (and of course he is lacking things) is made up by the effectiveness of his use of examples, metaphors, off-snow demonstrations.

For those of us who learn well from his approach that is.

I agree. He has brought some new thoughts into play for me in my skiing. However, they often sit just beyond the full description of the movements required to put them in play. You may be more used to this type of discussion with your PSIA involvement, but for me it comes up short. I want more detailed understanding of the movements involved in order to make the ideas happen in my own skiing.

 

[Steve]

Have you watched "How to Create Separation in Your Skiing"?
or Rotational Forces (it's not necessarily active rotary, have no fear

 

[Noodler]

Have you watched "How to Create Separation in Your Skiing"?
or Rotational Forces (it's not necessarily active rotary, have no fear

Former, yes. Latter, no (I am scared... ).