Toppling

[Kneale Brownson]

"Guide ski ride ski" "the brains vs the brawn" "decider ski muscle ski" and such are common phrases describing the role of the inside vs outside ski. The origin of any one of these is not clear.

late to this, but I remember someone using the smart and dumb ski wording at a PSIA clinic during the 1970s. It rang a bell so that I've used the terms ever since.

 

[Mike King]

Balancing over the ski in transition is the deal... All too often though, for many unless properly coached, shortening the inside leg without containing the inside foot gets people inside and back. If I can sort out the 'over' in that moment before transition and sort the feet out, then we're ready for long leg, short leg and maybe even leveling the pelvis.

A distinction @tomgellie makes is that the flexion is to move the body OVER the skis and into the inside of the new turn. It isn't a flexion of the body TO the ski -- that just results in maintaining the pressure on the old outside ski. Rather, you want the flexion to create a fulcrum on the outside edge of the old inside ski that allows the body to rotate over that fulcrum down the hill.

There are two ways to accomplish this. One is to flex the outside leg while accepting the pressure on the old inside leg. The other is to remove the pressure on the old outside ski and replace it with pressure on the new one.

Tom has a video in his body prep group that shows a very advanced skier (not sure who) doing these amazing turns where in the finish of the turn, the inside leg is flexed so much that the ski is off of the snow. He then removes the support on the outside ski so quickly that he is actually in the air with both skis off of the snow. He then topples into the new turn and replaces the support by extending the new outside leg to engage the ski. Very impressive demonstration that remove and replace does work.

Mike

 

[markojp]

^^^^ No problem with that at all... managing pressure in high performance turns, sometimes it's hard to keep the new inside ski on the snow for a brief moment, but you better get it back on the snow in pretty short order. Again, I think we just need to recognize the role of D.I.R.T. in different outcomes of the same principles. But let's admit that outside of the race community and some the higher levels of the ski instruction biz, not a lot of folks are making solid, balanced, high performance carved turns. It's pretty hard to get people there until some more basic ideas are sorted and in order... like simply being aware of what the feet are doing and where they are under our body a la fundamentals #1 and #2.

 

[geepers]

Balancing over the ski in transition is the deal

Happy that you added that qualifier about where in the turn/s. At 1st I took that "over" thing literally. As in vertically over. Interpreted the term "keep your feet under you" in a similar way.

Tom has a video in his body prep group that shows a very advanced skier (not sure who) doing these amazing turns where in the finish of the turn, the inside leg is flexed so much that the ski is off of the snow. He then removes the support on the outside ski so quickly that he is actually in the air with both skis off of the snow. He then topples into the new turn and replaces the support by extending the new outside leg to engage the ski. Very impressive demonstration that remove and replace does work.

Not got access to that part of TG's content.

Interestingly can see something similar in MH's free ski vid, especially the 2nd run where both skis are off the snow after cross-over.


Think it was in a Ron le Master presentation (?) - when the skis are light in transition (and off the snow is very light) we don't have a whole heap of control over where the body parts are going. We set them on course before getting light and then they go where we send them. There's no lateral pivot point with skis off the snow. However as TG points out in the merry-go-round vid if our torso and feet on are diverging paths at retraction we get angles and an extension of the new outside leg for no effort. It sure works on snow (for the modest angles I'm able to make).

 

[markojp]

I think we're all in violent agreement.

 

[Steve]

Let's just disagree to agree.

 

[razie]

Balancing over the ski in transition is the deal... All too often though, for many unless properly coached, shortening the inside leg without containing the inside foot gets people inside and back. If I can sort out the 'over' in that moment before transition and sort the feet out, then we're ready for long leg, short leg and maybe even leveling the pelvis.

I don't follow the balance on the inside edge versus the entire ski distinction, but @markojp nailed it.

The balance around transition, when the skier is not standing strong on a grinding ski is the deal. When the ski is grinding, bending, you got your pressure, it's turning whatever, that's the easy part. With enough training, wine abstinence and tuned equipment, anyone can stand on one foot

Developing balance on an edge that's not really "there", as your body parts are re-arranging for the new turn, that's the magic trick and it's all about the dynamics, not the statics of COM/BOS balance as you're grinding.

The point being - as you're moving up the stack, you have to stop grinding the ski. So although normally presented as expert level, balancing on a grinding ski, at whatever angle you can think of (including hip to snow), is just the entry level for true performance skiing...

That's why imho, the true measure of an expert skier is not doing whatever GS carved turns on a SL ski on a black run, that we see everyone doing all over youtube (where all you need is big angles and grinding the ski) but doing true slalom turns on a black run. Grind that!

 

[JESinstr]

Balancing over the ski in transition is the deal... All too often though, for many unless properly coached, shortening the inside leg without containing the inside foot gets people inside and back. If I can sort out the 'over' in that moment before transition and sort the feet out, then we're ready for long leg, short leg and maybe even leveling the pelvis.

Markojp, I hear ya. Where I was coming from was the perspective of a wedge turner where there is no edge to edge transition. If the wedge turner moves his/her mass out over the outside ski, that will tend to flatten the ski into a skidding situation and I see many instructors teaching and demoing that. No wonder it becomes so hard to close the skis into a christie formation. So sorry for not stating the context.

My goto transition sequence for medium to large radius turns is to move forward onto the uphill edge of the old inside ski thus releasing the old outside ski in the process and then roll the old inside ski into the new turn which I think is what you call the "Over" part. I am not saying I balance over my ski because if I am intending on turning (circular travel) then the only parts of the ski where balance matters are the edges. The time spent between edges is what I think Mike King calls imbalance.

 

[markojp]

Markojp, I hear ya. Where I was coming from was the perspective of a wedge turner where there is no edge to edge transition. If the wedge turner moves his/her mass out over the outside ski, that will tend to flatten the ski into a skidding situation and I see many instructors teaching and demoing that. No wonder it becomes so hard to close the skis into a christie formation. So sorry for not stating the context.

My goto transition sequence for medium to large radius turns is to move forward onto the uphill edge of the old inside ski thus releasing the old outside ski in the process and then roll the old inside ski into the new turn which I think is what you call the "Over" part. I am not saying I balance over my ski because if I am intending on turning (circular travel) then the only parts of the ski where balance matters are the edges. The time spent between edges is what I think Mike King calls imbalance.

I'd argue that when we're moving a beginner more over the outside ski, you have much better edge grip at lower edge angles than standing directly between the skis or a bit uphill toward the inside ski as beginners often do. It's all about platform angle. You've either got it, or you don't. You can build that sensation early, or spend a load of time reinventing their skiing later on. It's the same reason we try to get folks CoM up over their feet teaching a gliding wedge, no?

 

[JESinstr]

I'd argue that when we're moving a beginner more over the outside ski, you have much better edge grip at lower edge angles than standing directly between the skis or a bit uphill toward the inside ski as beginners often do. It's all about platform angle. You've either got it, or you don't. You can build that sensation early, or spend a load of time reinventing their skiing later on. It's the same reason we try to get folks CoM up over their feet teaching a gliding wedge, no?

I think we are on the same train here. To your excellent point about reinvention, the focus of my teaching is to develop carving movement patterns right from the get go. This is why I was never a big fan of the gliding wedge. IMO, it was introduced out of the age old wedge to parallel conundrum but it was skidding focused not carving focused. And skidding for a beginner is not a comfortable place to be. Back in the day before shaped skis, I can understand the approach but not today.

Assuming a medium wedge turn, I try and get the beginner TO the inside edge of the outside ski. This may seem like splitting hairs but again, it goes directly to your point of reinventing. If you instruct and/or demo showing your upper body laterally separating to move one's mass over the ski, you are not softening/shorting the inside leg, you are actually disengaging it from the edge building and carving process.

A medium wedge configuration sets up the outside leg for a carving state. For a left turn, a softening of the left (inside) leg acts as the catalyst for directing mass (ergo pressure) to the inside edge of the right ski. The key is keeping the upper body vertical so it is a totally lateral move.

As the left leg softens/shortens, the right leg flexes, directing mass (weight in this case) down through the arch and pressure into the tongue of the boot to a position of strength with the knee moving slightly inward toward the direction of intended travel.

If you watch JF's "Developing New Motor Patterns", he repeats over and over how you shorten the inside leg AS you steer the outside. The ultimate steer is the "ski turning you" and is something that can be implemented from beginner to expert IMO.

 

[markojp]

The gliding wedge works wonders in lift lines.

 

[JESinstr]

We all use the wedge right? Ever practice the wedge short radius drill. Great exercise to develop independent leg action. Suprised how many "advance" skier can't do it.

 

[James]

the ski is grinding, bending, you got your pressure,

Grinding?? Possibly not the best word choice, though we don’t have a lot of them.

This 422ft rail grind record might have been broken by now. That’s a long grind!

 

[Tim Hodgson]

We all use the wedge right? Ever practice the wedge short radius drill. Great exercise to develop independent leg action. Suprised how many "advance" skier can't do it.

This is Gellie's intro to toppling move.

Are you subscribed to his videos?

 

[James]

We all use the wedge right? Ever practice the wedge short radius drill. Great exercise to develop independent leg action. Suprised how many "advance" skier can't do it.

So you’re making linked short radius wedge turns?
When I was in Switzerland, the little kids ski school had this setup of low half circles. Maybe 12” high. They’d put them in a straightline, alternating left and right sides. So the kids would go through lifting or letting, one leg go up then the other. It was hilarious to watch. Be a great adult excercise.

 

[geepers]

Ever practice the wedge short radius drill.

That could cover a few different drills.

The Canadians do one called Power Plow - linked snow plow turns of short radius morphing into parallel short radius swing turns.

Richie Berger does another type in Legacy 1 - at transition new outside ski steered to a wedge to turn and then complete the turn by bringing the inside ski parallel.

 

[JESinstr]

That could cover a few different drills.

The Canadians do one called Power Plow - linked snow plow turns of short radius morphing into parallel short radius swing turns.

Richie Berger does another type in Legacy 1 - at transition new outside ski steered to a wedge to turn and then complete the turn by bringing the inside ski parallel.

#1. The blend from wedge SR to Parallel SR is seamless. And the only thing that changes is the movement pattern of the inside leg/foot.

Aside from the importance of lateral leg independence, building vertical independence is, in a way, just like bicycling with your hands positioned where the handlebars would be and your butt on the seat creating separation between the upper and lower body.

 

[JESinstr]

This is Gellie's intro to toppling move.

Are you subscribed to his videos?

I am not. That being said, I have seen a lot of Gellie's content and it is excellent. I don't think there is much difference in our approaches to the teaching of skiing. There is just a difference in vocabularies regarding certain areas, and that's a good thing because a good teacher needs to have many ways of describing things.

While it is admittedly more fun and profitable to work with intermediate and advanced skiers, my focus is on developing carving (circular travel) fundamentals in beginners which mean the same ole same ole has got to change.

 

[geepers]

Thanks!! I found her on the insta page too. It's Thalmann though. She raced EC. Really nice skiing. Funny, she is Swiss indeed! I really didn't think that, I would have guessed German. Maybe she got trained by Germans, but that is unlikely. Thanks again!

In case you want to see some more of Thalmann's skiing...

 

[Erik Timmerman]

#1. The blend from wedge SR to Parallel SR is seamless. And the only thing that changes is the movement pattern of the inside leg/foot.

Aside from the importance of lateral leg independence, building vertical independence is, in a way, just like bicycling with your hands positioned where the handlebars would be and your butt on the seat creating separation between the upper and lower body.

If this is true, why are you not a fan of the gliding wedge? (post 170)