Trees, Race, All Over the Place?

[François Pugh]

Still race beer league, so I need race level boots for that.

Was on a business trip many years ago and unexpectedly was invited to go skiing. Renting good skis is not a problem. Renting boots is. I knew the boots would suck but I was shocked at how bad the boots worked. No control over the skis.

Is it possible that a stiff race boot is not the optimal boot for soft snow? Can a little more "elasticity" (not loss of feedback) be more beneficial in soft snow than a rigid boot?

Maybe it just comes down to personal preference. Hell, its been so long since I've skied anything but a race boot you might be right - I might hate it.

Actually the race boots with their harder and thinner liner and more direct contact with the shell will always provide more feedback. The softer boots will just be more forgiving. For example if you catch something wrong, your boot will bend more easily and let you ride over it without getting pushed too far out of position. On the other hand the stiffer boots might help keep you in a position of control for when things really go wrong.

 

[markojp]

FWIW, I ski one alpine race boot for everything from 65mm to 118mm underfoot in all conditions, terrain, and tasks(work).

 

[DocGKR]

Yup, race boot for 65mm to 115mm for me as well....

 

[motogreg]

this guy does it like this:

 

[GregK]

Sounds like the new Atomic Dual Strap might be a perfect solution using the same boot for adjusting the strap for more elastic “give” off the race course and less when on it.

 

[James]

Of course you can. And you can ski race skis in the trees.

You joke, but most I know who are good do this. Some have moved on from their plug boot days, but they ski one boot everywhere. Other than say a touring boot, but those are generally crap for alpine.

Here’s your solution- Get your well fitted race boot. Don’t go for the “I can’t wear these without pain” fit.
When you want more range of flex, ski the boot with the top buckle undone. But still in the notch. Also the second one down on the cuff, if you want.

I expect we’ll hear howls, but the number of good skiers who do this is large. Even in trees. Biggest downside is snow influx.
Now if you truly ski like Candide Thovex in the trees….well it wouldn’t be a question.

 

[chris_the_wrench]

THE TOPIC IS: Are there boots out there with some sort of flex adjustment?

My apologies for not stating it clearly in the original post.

Yes, Full tilts. Swap the tongues.
-Chris

 

[CascadeConcrete]

THE TOPIC IS: Are there boots out there with some sort of flex adjustment?

Your existing race boots almost certainly have two bolts in the spine. You can take one out to soften it, two out to soften it more (probably wouldn't race or do any seriously hard skiing with both out). It's not something I typically play with much, generally figure out my preferred setting and then forget it. But you could experiment and see if you take one out for a day of off piste skiing, if that gets you where you want to be.

 

[onenerdykid]

How would the Hawk Ultra 130 perform in a GS course for a decent beer league racer?

The new 21/22 Hawx Ultra is much more substantial & stable than the previous generation. It's a more powerful boot without stepping into Redster CS territory. As long as you aren't using actual FIS skis in your beer league, then it should work totally fine for you.

 

[DocGKR]

This is a useful follow-on with more specific boot setting guidelines for those that liked Reilly McGlashan's boot video above:

 

[oldschoolskier]

Equipment over the years have become very dedicated, boot though have some flexibility in what you can do with them based on couple of simple concepts.

• Good proper fit is a must.
• Select the highest performance level you need.
• Finally here is the secret, loosen the cuff to soften the performance. How much is up to you.

Final comment, ski is about enjoying what you are doing, if you are equipment limited (some of us have different budget constraints), ski with what you have and learn to ski it well, you'll develop a broader skill set.

 

[onenerdykid]

Sounds like the new Atomic Dual Strap might be a perfect solution using the same boot for adjusting the strap for more elastic “give” off the race course and less when on it.

This is actually a great point. If you set the new Professional Dual Strap to a very elastic/active setting, it will definitely add more absorption & suspension to the boot. Conversely, if you set it up in a fixed/direct setting, it will be more responsive & powerful.

 

[KingGrump]

Your existing race boots almost certainly have two bolts in the spine. You can take one out to soften it, two out to soften it more (probably wouldn't race or do any seriously hard skiing with both out). It's not something I typically play with much, generally figure out my preferred setting and then forget it. But you could experiment and see if you take one out for a day of off piste skiing, if that gets you where you want to be.

In a boot with two bolts, removing one bolt doesn't really soften the flex. It generally just introduce more slop.
Removing both bolts is a good path towards an achilles tear.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

In a boot with two bolts, removing one bolt doesn't really soften the flex. It generally just introduce more slop.
Removing both bolts is a good path towards an achilles tear.

So why do the manufacturers include them at all then? And specifically state in the instruction manuals that you can remove one or both bolts to soften the boots? Why do they often provide plastic covers for the holes if you're not supposed to remove them? I assume it isn't because they want you to tear your Achilles and then sue them...

 

[KingGrump]

So why do the manufacturers include them at all then? And specifically state in the instruction manuals that you can remove one or both bolts to soften the boots? Why do they often provide plastic covers for the holes if you're not supposed to remove them? I assume it isn't because they want you to tear your Achilles and then sue them...

It's to provide the illusion of individual choice.

If you take a pair of boots to a good boot fitter to soften the flex. What will he/she do so he can take your money? Take out a bolt from the boot spine? Most likely not.


Let's think through the remove both bolt approach. You can provide your own answers. It's a good discovery process.
What holds the lower clog to the cuff when both bolts are removed?
What happens when one flexes the upper cuff forward?
What will stop the cuff from moving too far forward?

 

[CascadeConcrete]

If you take a pair of boots to a good boot fitter to soften the flex. What will he/she do so he can take your money? Take out a bolt from the boot spine? Most likely not.

I've actually had multiple bootfitters suggest removing bolts for various reasons. I'm sure you'll just suggest they must not be very good fitters then, to which I would respond that they're quite well regarded, and this conversation won't go anywhere productive.

So I'll just reiterate my previous point and then bow out: manufacturers wouldn't be using removable bolts instead of a more permanent fastener, and providing instructions and tools to do it if it was nearly as problematic/dangerous as you suggest.

 

[KingGrump]

No worries, mate.
Your boot. Your bolts. Your achilles. Your choice.

 

[markojp]

I'm with the Grump on this one. Yes, I know 2 people who removed both bolts in a particular very popular (and IMHO, excellent boot) who have fallen forward, binding didn't release, and torn their achilles. Flex and return wise, the upper and lower function better with at least one fixed point on the spine.

 

[James]

Taking both bolts out isn’t a great idea.

Yeah I’ve seen the bolt theories propagated by manufacturers. It’a a bit mystifying. Lange even used to give various percentages of softening depending on which hole the bolt is in. Dubious.

On a stiff race boot, it’s likely just psychological. One prob makes a difference in theory and in simulation. Two is dumb.
Cutting the V is what’s done to actually soften them. Boots flex largely by deformation. Which in itself seems not the best, but it’s relatively cheap, no complicated parts, and Luigi and Luigi’s father have been making them that way for decades.

manufacturers wouldn't be using removable bolts instead of a more permanent fastener, and providing instructions and tools to do it if it was nearly as problematic/dangerous as you suggest.

Well first off, it is the ski industry. Not exactly double blind random placebo controlled trials going on.

Second, if it’s riveted, which some are, how do you get the cuff off? Drill. It’s a pain.

 

[Hermanator]

After much research (its always fun reading about ski gear) and trying on several brands/models, I decided to go with the Tecnica Mach1 MV 130. Seemed to fit my foot shape the best out of the box and supposedly lends itself well to customization. Like the concept of the T-Drive and consistent flex regardless of temp. On super cold race nights my brittle old race boots felt like a flex rating of 200. Excited for the season to start!