Tried and failed to get a lesson at Liberty

[rocdoc]

Very odd experience. I went today, the mountain was pretty empty, sweet. Since I was by myself I figured a lesson would be good so I don’t have to just talk to myself the whole time.
I line up. A cluster of people around the 1-4 level, then a big gap, and in front of the 7-8-9 sign, little old me. An instructor skies up, “here for a lesson, sir?” “Indeed I am”. The guy starts chatting with me, seems excited to do the lesson with me. As we’re doing this, in comes someone looking like the boss, with a different uniform, rushing straight to us in a hurry, and says “sorry Sir, can’t do it today. I don’t have enough instructors.” The first instructor looked very confused, and to break the awkwardness tells me “I guess he needs me somewhere else” and walks off. There were several instructors standing not looking like they had anything to do!
The boss-looking guy signed my pass, apologies, I can come back any time.
I opted for a refund instead - where by the way I was initially told “we can’t do that”, I replied, “yes, indeed you can, I paid for a service I have not received”, and got the refund.
I definitely want to assume the best and give benefit of the doubt. But the way this happened, as it was very obvious I would be the only one in my level, really makes me suspicious of a strategy to minimize people getting one on one instruction when they paid for group.
This is the first time I went for a lesson here with the new management. I wonder if it’s new financial priorities? If that’s the case, why do you sell group lessons at all levels?
All in all a rather bizarre experience. I’ll have to think really hard about trying for a lesson at Liberty again...

 

[cantunamunch]

Been there (Whitetail anyway), seen that - during Peak ownership; I don't think it's a VR thing per se.

On the occasion I specifically remember, the lesson was a "freebie" under the NCC + Unlimited lessons plan so no refund was involved. I think maybe that's why the refund process was so unfamiliar to them - they're used to rejecting Lesson Plan card holders.

 

[VickieH]

Sounds as if you did indeed get a lesson, just not in skiing

 

[Coach13]

That sucks to say the least. Since you saw other instructors standing around it makes me wonder if they simply didn’t want to pay an instructor to go out with a single. Given the fact the instructors only get paid when they teach, it brings that into play in my mind.

 

[cantunamunch]

That sucks to say the least. Since you saw other instructors standing around it makes me wonder if they simply didn’t want to pay an instructor to go out with a single. Given the fact the instructors only get paid when they teach, it brings that into play in my mind.

It makes me wonder if those others standing around are simply not qualified to teach someone at @rocdoc 's level and are just waiting to see whether enough kids show up. If so, they are probably also doubtfully qualified to teach mixed level groups at 1-4-5 if there are more than 5-6 waiting.

In which case sending out one L2 with a low level group and an L1(-) shadow, followed by to the high level skier, is not a call I would necessarily disagree with. If @rocdoc had been with 2-3 buddies there's also a good chance the line boss would have taken the lesson instead of sending one of the standers.

 

[Coach13]

It makes me wonder if those others standing around are simply not qualified to teach someone at @rocdoc 's level and are just waiting to see whether enough kids show up. If so, they are probably also doubtfully qualified to teach mixed level groups at 1-4-5 if there are more than 5-6 waiting.

In which case sending out one L2 with a low level group and an L1(-) shadow, followed by to the high level skier, is not a call I would necessarily disagree with. If @rocdoc had been with 2-3 buddies there's also a good chance the line boss would have taken the lesson instead of sending one of the standers.

Could be, for sure but the original instructor that approached him certainly thought he was qualified. I simply hate to see this occur for both @rocdoc or any other students trying to get a lesson at our local resorts. Honestly, I hate it for the ski school as well to pass by a higher level lesson opportunity as they are certainly a rarer occurrence at Liberty. It all adds up to more mediocre instructors and skiers imo.

 

[cantunamunch]

Could be, for sure but the original instructor that approached him certainly thought he was qualified.

Exactly - which makes him the best person to send out with a large mixed-but-low level group, on a group control level, on a terrain selection level and on a skills demo level.

I simply hate to see this occur for both @rocdoc or any other students trying to get a lesson at our local resorts.

Sure.

Honestly, I hate it for the ski school as well to pass by a higher level lesson opportunity as they are certainly a rarer occurrence at Liberty.

Rarer now that the Unlimited Lesson pass option is defunct - 2/3 years ago it was not uncommon to see 5+ at the L7-9 banner at 7pm lineup.

It all adds up to more mediocre instructors and skiers imo.

<- this is my "agreeing with you" face. I just think there has been a long term focus away from line up lessons towards clinics and privates, and it's not a new ownership thing. If I was feeling uncharitable I'd say lineup lessons are just a tool to shovel skiers into the front door.

 

[Coach13]

Rarer now that the Unlimited Lesson pass option is defunct - 2/3 years ago it was not uncommon to see 5+ at the L7-9 banner at 7pm lineup.

In case you don’t know, the unlimited lesson plan (1 per visit) is still available with the Night Tracker (old night club) pass.

 

[VickieH]

Several years ago, I was around some Liberty instructors. One of the guys said Liberty had around 400 instructors. And they can't attract, cultivate, and schedule high-level instructors?

At the PO yesterday, they had signs up "Temporarily Out of Stamps". It seemed laughable that a business could not manage the inventory of a product that is tied to its primary mission. And yet, at least they knew they had no stamps, informed the workers they had no stamps, and informed the customers they had no stamps rather than waste our and their time. Pretty ugly if the Liberty ski school needs to improve in order to be as good as a poorly run government office.

I should be a primary consumer of ski lessons, but I've been disheartened by what I've experienced with ski schools. To @cantunamunch's point, I may simply travel to clinics -- and the big Post Office -- in the future and give up trying to utilize local-er businesses.

 

[cantunamunch]

Several years ago, I was around some Liberty instructors. One of the guys said Liberty had around 400 instructors. And they can't attract, cultivate, and schedule high-level instructors?

The word 'cultivate' now makes me think of seedlings. I wouldn't be surprised if they wind up with no better than 10 mature trees.

To your point - maybe this thread?

Can they really do this to instructors?

The last two places I worked required instructors to be present between certain hours but didn't pay them unless they were actually teaching a lesson. They only paid for actual lesson time, and then barely above min wage. So you could be ready to work from 10 to 4 but then only get paid 2 hours...

www.pugski.com

 

[HardDaysNight]

It is surprising though. In Vail’s case their greed usually outweighs their incompetence although sometimes not by much!

 

[crgildart]

Probably didn't realize you paid for a lesson that day instead of there trying to use a credit/coupon/pass privilege. Sending an advanced skier out with a not so experienced instructor still makes more sense than issuing a refund. Now, the angle of stiffing you on a private lesson at group lesson cost makes the most sense of all these scenarios to me. It's just that I've never seen that happen but have seen lots of instances where a group of one de facto private happens. My kids have gotten a couple of those deals not all that long ago.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

What are the stamps for?

Anyway, regarding your experience. You will get a guest experience survey in a few days. Make sure you let them know what you think.

 

[Coach13]

What are the stamps for?

By stamps, I think you’re referring to the lesson pass. At our 3 local resorts when you buy a lesson they give you a lesson pass that you provide to the instructor during line up once you’re assigned to a group.

 

[VickieH]

The word 'cultivate' now makes me think of seedlings. I wouldn't be surprised if they wind up with no better than 10 mature trees.

To your point - maybe this thread?

10 mature trees beats thousands of weeds. Except perhaps for erosion control, in which case any root'll do.

The ski school thing seems to be a mess in lots of places. I went to an expo to buy my pass this season. Got a pass that includes 3 group lessons. There was no line at the booth so I talked with the rep a bit about ski lessons -- some of the things I need to work on, my hope to meet a ski instructor during those lessons who I work with really well so I can continue with private lessons. Turns out, she IS an instructor. She started chatting me up, would love to work with me, etc. I didn't ask about her certification, but asked about her experience -- when she started skiing, teaching, etc. She's in her mid-30s. She gave up skiing for snowboarding 20 years ago. Hasn't skied in 20 years, but would like to be hired for private ski lessons? That's messed up.

 

[Bendu]

I wonder how many Liberty instructors are going to stay under Vail's rule.

 

[Coach13]

I wonder how many Liberty instructors are going to stay under Vail's rule.

If they want to continue teaching in shadows of the DC-Baltimore area they don’t have other options close by.

 

[DaveD]

I'm a solid level 7 working on level 8 . When I take a lesson (midweek) there is often no one else, or maybe one other guy at my level. So I get a private or semiprivate for the cost of a class. Last time, at Stratton, I even got a private with the boss instructor... he said he saw there was only one expert lesson sold, and he wanted to ski that morning, so he took me for himself. Sweet.

Anyway, apropos of this discussion, I was looking to take a couple more lessons last week. Looked at Stratton's web site and it now says
"Our teen and adult .... group lessons are geared towards beginner, yellow, green, or blue skill levels "

So I checked Sugarbush and their group lesson page says
"Ski and ride, levels 2-6 "

So is this an industry trend? They don't want to pay a class instructor when they only collect from one student? Lessons are expensive enough, I am not going to pay for a private.

 

[James]

So is this an industry trend? They don't want to pay a class instructor when they only collect from one student? Lessons are expensive enough, I am not going to pay for a private.

I don't know. Our advanced adult lesson groups were eliminated several years ago. We used to have afternoon groups with max of 3 people. Even those weren't filled. I guess to ensure no one came, they eliminated them. (Kidding. Who knows)
But....Vail has brought them back. Am, pm, full day.

 

[Mike King]

Management has relayed to me that group lessons, particularly at the upper levels, are dropping in volume industry and worldwide...