• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Tried and failed to get a lesson at Liberty

johnnyvw

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Posts
1,668
Location
near RDU
Wait. Really? You paid for an hour and a half, and got only an hour because no one else showed up which was no fault of yours? This happened twice? I hope you didn't tip these guys after they asked you to give up a half hour that you just paid for. And I'm an instructor who likes tips as much as all other instructors do.
I've had that happen a few times, never had a problem with it because A: it was still much cheaper than a private lesson and B: the instructor was able to focus on MY issues, rather than a "general" lesson that might or might not help me as much. One in particular at Squaw gave me a huge breakthrough in skiing very steep terrain, was worth 10 times what I paid. And I tipped accordingly...
 

Wendy

Resurrecting the Oxford comma
Admin
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Posts
4,905
Location
Santa Fe, New Mexico
My problem with what happened to the OP was that the supervisor did not assess the lesson needs before assigning instructors, and the conversation ended up occurring in front of the customer, which was awkward and entirely preventable.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
My problem with what happened to the OP was that the supervisor did not assess the lesson needs before assigning instructors, and the conversation ended up occurring in front of the customer, which was awkward and entirely preventable.

Having been in that supervisor's shoes, while yes unfortunate, we try to have all staff meet, greet, and welcome guests. And yes, it's not always possible to catch that newer instructor who might be over confident in their ability from communicating their desire to take that advanced guest out. There's also a dance between the sales desk and the hill, and on occasion, counts and needs are not communicated with 100% accuracy.

Speaking only for myself without knowing the specifics of the behind the scenes choices available to their staff, in a similar situation I would have explained to the guest that I didn't have an instructor available that could provide the lesson they needed and would suggest/ask them about rescheduling. If at all possible, I would have taken them out. I've done this many times on 'slow' weekdays when staffing levels are lower. So why didn't their supervisor take out the OP? Perhaps the supervisor was a strong snowboarder, but not a terrific skier. Maybe they had injury they were nursing. If there was a problem in the scenario, it was simply not communicating with the guest more transparently.

In my own experience, I've never hesitated to send an instructor out with one guest in a group lesson. Even with the highest paid L3, we're still going to cover costs, the instructor gets to hone their craft, and the guest will have a superlative experience. Sure, upper management would love to see a 4:1 guest/staff ratio, but such is life on the ski school roller coaster. EasternSkiBum's excellent post outlines the day of ski school life very well.

The elephant in the room is the assumption that all those instructors just standing around can give an advance ski lesson. That's just not often the case, and it's a whole other thread about incentives and pay as to why not every staff member is fully certified. FWIW, I had no problem sending my son out with some of our new, uncertified full timers. They teach more in 2 weeks than part timers will in 2 seasons. He had a great time and still remembers many of them by name even if they've moved on.
 
Last edited:

Wendy

Resurrecting the Oxford comma
Admin
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Posts
4,905
Location
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Having been in that supervisor's shoes, while yes unfortunate, we try to have all staff meet, greet, and welcome guests. And yes, it's not always possible to catch that newer instructor who might be over confident in their ability from communicating their desire to take that advanced guest out. There's also a dance between the sales desk and the hill, and on occasion, counts and needs are not communicated with 100% accuracy.

Speaking only for myself without knowing the specifics of the behind the scenes choices available to their staff, in a similar situation I would have explained to the guest that I didn't have an instructor available that could provide the lesson they needed and would suggest/ask them about rescheduling. If at all possible, I would have taken them out. I've done this many times on 'slow' weekdays when staffing levels are lower. So why didn't their supervisor take out the OP? Perhaps the supervisor was a strong snowboarder, but not a terrific skier. Maybe they had injury they were nursing. If there was a problem in the scenario, it was simply not communicating with the guest more transparently.

In my own experience, I've never hesitated to send an instructor out with one guest in a group lesson. Even with the highest paid L3, we're still going to cover costs, the instructor gets to hone their craft, and the guest will have a superlative experience. Sure, upper management would love to see a 4:1 guest/staff ratio, but such is life on the ski school roller coaster. EasternSkiBum's excellent post outlines the day of ski school life very well.

The elephant in the room is the assumption that all those instructors just standing around can give an advance ski lesson. That's just not often the case, and it's a whole other thread about incentives and pay as to why not every staff member is fully certified. FWIW, I had no problem sending my son out with some of our new, uncertified full timers. They teach more in 2 weeks than part timers will in 2 seasons. He had a great time and still remembers many of them by name even if they've moved on.

If there was a problem in the scenario, it was simply not communicating with the guest more transparently.”
Bingo.

I do work both the desk end and the instruction end. And while, yes, it happens that there are days when there are instructor shortages, and somebody may be out a lesson, there’s still an easy fix to avoiding the OP’s situation. And that is by having the supervisor meet and talk with students, while the instructors wait nearby. Desk staff are instructed to determine the level of the student upon making the reservation or selling a ticket, and that is printed on the lesson schedule that the supervisor has. While instructors at my hill certainly greet students, they defer completely to the supervisors, who know well what the teaching abilities and qualifications of each instructor are, as well as the level of each student, as described above. If they are uncertain, supervisors will often ask instructors if they would be willing to teach certain students, and this is always done far out of earshot of the students.

Yes, supervisors at my hill (there are usually 3-4 L3 supervisors on duty each shift) will take out students in a shortage.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
The other variable is destination vs. non-destination resort. Most destination resorts have staffing resources in both sales and instructors that many non-destination resorts don't have.
 

zag

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Posts
63
Location
DC
Very odd experience. I went today, the mountain was pretty empty, sweet. Since I was by myself I figured a lesson would be good so I don’t have to just talk to myself the whole time.
I line up. A cluster of people around the 1-4 level, then a big gap, and in front of the 7-8-9 sign, little old me. An instructor skies up, “here for a lesson, sir?” “Indeed I am”. The guy starts chatting with me, seems excited to do the lesson with me. As we’re doing this, in comes someone looking like the boss, with a different uniform, rushing straight to us in a hurry, and says “sorry Sir, can’t do it today. I don’t have enough instructors.” The first instructor looked very confused, and to break the awkwardness tells me “I guess he needs me somewhere else” and walks off. There were several instructors standing not looking like they had anything to do!
The boss-looking guy signed my pass, apologies, I can come back any time.
I opted for a refund instead - where by the way I was initially told “we can’t do that”, I replied, “yes, indeed you can, I paid for a service I have not received”, and got the refund.
I definitely want to assume the best and give benefit of the doubt. But the way this happened, as it was very obvious I would be the only one in my level, really makes me suspicious of a strategy to minimize people getting one on one instruction when they paid for group.
This is the first time I went for a lesson here with the new management. I wonder if it’s new financial priorities? If that’s the case, why do you sell group lessons at all levels?
All in all a rather bizarre experience. I’ll have to think really hard about trying for a lesson at Liberty again...

What lesson time did you attend?

I may be able to offer some insider insight.

Definitely an unusual occurrence at Liberty. Perhaps they had a large reservation group coming at an assigned time after you and had to hold numbers.
 

vindibona1

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Posts
174
Location
Northern Illinoi
...An instructor skies up, “here for a lesson, sir?” ... As we’re doing this, in comes someone looking like the boss, with a different uniform, rushing straight to us in a hurry, and says “sorry Sir, can’t do it today. I don’t have enough instructors.”

I'm sorry for your frustration. I don't know the area, but I know that there could be several reasons why they blew you off. As someone else pointed out, there might not be someone qualified to teach your level. If you're a 7, 8 or 9 you'd probably want a Level III instructor, but by the nature of the beast, often a little scarce. Or, the boss may not have wanted to dedicate anyone to single invidual at class rates. Lots of reasons, but IMO they should have accommodated you, even if it meant that you had to wait an hour or two for an instructor to become available.
 

zag

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Posts
63
Location
DC
the boss may not have wanted to dedicate anyone to single invidual at class rates.

Although this may happen at other mountains, it is not a thing at liberty. Almost all lessons at liberty are group lessons so there is no revenue to lose, most 8&9 lessons have only one or two students per lesson time.

Lots of reasons, but IMO they should have accommodated you, even if it meant that you had to wait an hour or two for an instructor to become available.

Yes, the fact that this was not offered is very strange, possible that this was the last or 2nd last lesson time of the day and qualified staff was not available or previously assigned.
 

vindibona1

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Posts
174
Location
Northern Illinoi
Yes, the fact that this was not offered is very strange, possible that this was the last or 2nd last lesson time of the day and qualified staff was not available or previously assigned.

I'm guessing that they had lack of qualified staff. Someone who is skiing a level 8 or 9 is going to want, possibly need a Level III Certified. As I said, could be a myriad of reasons. I'm glad the OP got his money back. That shouldn't have been a question.
 

SkiSchoolPros

Impact Ecosystem- ie.Money with Meaning
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Posts
207
Location
Colorado
I'm a solid level 7 working on level 8 . When I take a lesson (midweek) there is often no one else, or maybe one other guy at my level. So I get a private or semiprivate for the cost of a class. Last time, at Stratton, I even got a private with the boss instructor... he said he saw there was only one expert lesson sold, and he wanted to ski that morning, so he took me for himself. Sweet.

Anyway, apropos of this discussion, I was looking to take a couple more lessons last week. Looked at Stratton's web site and it now says
"Our teen and adult .... group lessons are geared towards beginner, yellow, green, or blue skill levels "

So I checked Sugarbush and their group lesson page says
"Ski and ride, levels 2-6 "

So is this an industry trend? They don't want to pay a class instructor when they only collect from one student? Lessons are expensive enough, I am not going to pay for a private.
This past season Vail did away with advanced level adult group lessons and only offered privates.

The other variable is destination vs. non-destination resort. Most destination resorts have staffing resources in both sales and instructors that many non-destination resorts don't have.
Staffing might be better at some destination resorts, but there are growing labor shortages in expensive mountain towns and numerous ski schools are finding it harder and harder to fill instructor vacancies. Even with required 48 hour advanced lesson booking this past season, Breck regularly sold out and Vail had to refund and turn down customers wanting $1,160 private lessons. I have heard that many other resorts including Copper and Park City are also struggling to beef up their instructor ranks for next season.

While Europe may not have an instructor shortage, many other countries seem to be suffering:





 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
This past season Vail did away with advanced level adult group lessons and only offered privates.


Staffing might be better at some destination resorts, but there are growing labor shortages in expensive mountain towns and numerous ski schools are finding it harder and harder to fill instructor vacancies. Even with required 48 hour advanced lesson booking this past season, Breck regularly sold out and Vail had to refund and turn down customers wanting $1,160 private lessons. I have heard that many other resorts including Copper and Park City are also struggling to beef up their instructor ranks for next season.

While Europe may not have an instructor shortage, many other countries seem to be suffering:






Pretty simple. Yep. Air BnB killed seasonal housing, and Vail resorts ( and many others) grossly underpays its instructors. Not much winning going on with that equation.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Posts
2,216
As others have mentioned, ski hills pay shit. Based on that, you can expect two demographics to be serving you - mid level managers included

1. The beater who is living The Dream and living in their truck or 8 to an apartment. Possibly because they are unemployable elsewhere.

2. The wealthy retiree who successfully managed large budgets, created successful business(s), and can pay cash for a house in a resort town.

Unless J1s come back in-line, it will be a very, very tough season for places like the I70 corridor and Park City. No doubt they will staff and run. Just don't expect exceptional service.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top