U16/19 racing DIN settings

[roxandnate]

I would appreciate thoughts and experience on setting DINs for U16/19 racers. Is the recommended "Type III" setting adequate? I am struck that, for instance, a popular race binding - Look SPX 15 Rockerace - is recommended for skiers using a minimum DIN of 8. Recommended DIN setting of 8 only kicks in at a fairly large foot size and body weight - such that most women racers at least will be below a DIN of 8, if using recommended settings. Curious if others are routinely running higher than recommended DIN and, if so, the rationale behind this. My kids have not had pre-release problems racing (and they are decent racers) at the recommended DINs.

 

[Swede]

Small BSL creates more force than a big, so actually higher DIN for small feet (everything else beeing equal). DIN is individual of course, but 8 is inme not high/uncommon for a U16 racer. However I believe the spx 15 start at 7, so you can def. ski it at near 7.

 

[Doug Briggs]

My recommendation would be to keep them at their current setting, because if they're working there's no need to change them.

 

[Rudi Riet]

I'm with @Doug Briggs here: if the athlete isn't "walking out" of the skis there's no need to crank up the DIN, especially for training. While there are some instances where staying locked in is safer, we're talking juniors here (14-18 years old) who aren't doing this for a living and for whom a serious injury could have long-term impact on basic quality of life.

And to put it bluntly: 90+ percent of the time a racer "pre-releasing" (i.e. prematurely releasing) from a binding is due to pilot error. Think of Alice Robinson's multiple "walking out of the skis" moments on the World Cup this year. Most of the time this is due to her taking a far too aggressive line and trying to compensate with strength moves. The binding interprets the motion vectoring as a possible injury and releases. It's simply doing the job for which it was designed, even if it's not doing what the athlete wants it to do.

Bindings, in the end, are not "smart" machines. They're very binary clamps with cams and springs, and most of them are either locked in or released with very little margin between. So in some cases (e.g. a lot of chattering due to non-commitment to weighting a ski) a binding will simply release - even one that's had it's DIN cranked up.

I always relate this story to young athletes I coach who have technique issues that cause releasing and request that I "crank them up": one year I was coaching a bunch of young athletes alongside a former Norwegian Ski Team athlete who became a coach. They were all having issues with bindings releasing, all of their release issues due to issues with technique and tactics (definitely not their equipment). The athletes were begging to have their DINs upped a few ticks.

The Norwegian coach called their bluff in a different way: he whipped out his Pozidrive screwdriver, handed it to me, said "put them down to 5" (the lowest setting on his bindings - he was typically at 10), and then threw himself at the icy, chattery GS course we were running. He went vollgaz and crushed it. Skis stayed on. When he got to the finish, he nonchalantly walked himself out of the heel pieces.

The kids didn't ask for adjustments for the rest of the season.

On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes bindings set at or below recommended DIN won't release properly. That was the case when I broke my femur. My binding was set at "coaches DIN" - i.e. basic shop settings - and I'd not had any problems with pre-releasing. But in this case the ski became iced into super-cooled slush and the binding didn't interpret my fall as a fall (either that or the whole release mechanism iced up due to the impact forcing the super-cooled water to freeze solid). So even with my DIN set low, the ski didn't release, my femur doing the "release" for me and eventually bringing about three surgeries that ended with a total hip replacement in 2017.

I agree that being on the extremes of a binding's release spectrum isn't ideal, but it's not the end of the world and in all likelihood the bindings will work OK at a setting of 8 (note: this is not a professional binding tech's advice, just that of a race coach who has worked with quite a few pro techs). If the ski isn't releasing prematurely, let it be.

 

[Swede]

I don’t think the OP has the SPX 15:s yet and worry they will be ”too much” for his/her U16 athlete as it starts at a DIN which according to reccomended DIN calculations is above where his/her athlete is. At least that is my intrepretation. Not staying with a 12 and going up to 15 is inme common in U16 for GS and for speed not uncommon in U14.

 

[roxandnate]

Well, that is part of it. I have run across a few pair of lightly used skis that would be great for my athletes but they have all been mounted with SPX 15 (or equivalent). Since those "start" at higher DIN than what my athletes are currently running, I did think they are probably "too much" binding (and I would rather run a binding in the middle of its range than off or near the bottom of its gauge). But I was starting to question myself, since apparently a lot of racers must be running at higher DINs. Rudi's response was SUPER helpful, in confirming my concern. I will look for SPX 12s and err on the side of intact knees!

 

[Swede]

You know your athlete best. But from a safety perspective bindings work from lowest to highest. From a performance perspective you might find it better at some point to step up to the bigger one. Inme that point usually comes in U16.

 

[hbear]

Yes. Usually move to the 15din binding in U16 gs for sure.
Use the recommended setting for BSL, weight and type. As already mentioned it’s the shorter BSL that ends up being a higher din setting all thing being equal (my daughter has a small foot [22.5 mondo] and ends up running a higher din than her teammates).
Good technique negates needing to crank it up at the junior ages, as already mentioned the “walking out” is often due to technical errors....outside ski chattering while leaning inside is a common one I see.

 

[roxandnate]

Moving to a 15 DIN binding and using the recommended setting for DIN are contradictory. My daughter is 5'4", 115#, BSL of 276mm. That is a DIN of 6 at skier type III. I don't understand the comments about "more performance" or "moving up" to a "bigger" binding as, beyond releasing appropriately, I am not sure what a binding contributes to performance. I don't see what age category has to do with it. It seems that if the consensus recommendation is not to crank up DINs, then using the most appropriate binding for the recommended DIN is the way to go. In this case, it would be to stick with the SPX 12?

 

[Doug Briggs]

I'm not convinced that one end or the other of the binding setting is worse than 'in the middle'. From all the torque tests I do, the binding works, or it doesn't. Where they are in the range of settings doesn't seem to matter. There are others that think otherwise; I'm not going to argue, just add my experience to the mix.

If the binding tests at the proper release torques, it will work as designed.

 

[Swede]

E..g

Moving to a 15 DIN binding and using the recommended setting for DIN are contradictory. My daughter is 5'4", 115#, BSL of 276mm. That is a DIN of 6 at skier type III. I don't understand the comments about "more performance" or "moving up" to a "bigger" binding as, beyond releasing appropriately, I am not sure what a binding contributes to performance. I don't see what age category has to do with it. It seems that if the consensus recommendation is not to crank up DINs, then using the most appropriate binding for the recommended DIN is the way to go. In this case, it would be to stick with the SPX 12?

Binding is perhaps the most overlooked part. Much more than just a ”releasing capacity”. It has together with plate quite an impact on the performance and feel of a ski in rigidity and elasticity.
Age—U16 sets start to get fast and athletes stronger and more technically skilled, so they need much sturdier set ups.
All this is of course individual and a 12 might be the right choice for you, but as you say, you see a lot of SPX 15:s on 2:nd hand U16 skis—for a reason.

Edit: just to take the thought to the extreme: have you calculated Tessa Worleys DIN? She would probably be a 6-7 according to the calculation. I know, not really relevant to your U16 athlete, but it starts to happen a lot for some at that age group.

 

[Uncle-A]

I see no reason to increase the DIN setting beyond the manufactures recommended setting. Depending on the binding you could even go lighter as long as the U16 is not coming out of it in practice. You could be exact on race day and lighter in practice.

 

[Pdub]

I agree with Rudi that a lot of pre-releases are due to a poor line and overcompensation creating chatter. On the other hand, I don't know any U16 or U19 athletes who go by recommended DIN settings. My 115 pound U19 girl is set at 7.5 but that will be cranked up to 8.5+ for races. Her 125 pound twin brother races at 11, as recommended by his coaches (ski academy). Racing puts far greater forces on the binding than the average level 3 skier the DIN charts are geared towards. Granted it seems like guesswork, but for years I have seen their coaches crank up their bindings far above the recommended DIN.

 

[S.H.]

Moving to a 15 DIN binding and using the recommended setting for DIN are contradictory. My daughter is 5'4", 115#, BSL of 276mm. That is a DIN of 6 at skier type III. I don't understand the comments about "more performance" or "moving up" to a "bigger" binding as, beyond releasing appropriately, I am not sure what a binding contributes to performance. I don't see what age category has to do with it. It seems that if the consensus recommendation is not to crank up DINs, then using the most appropriate binding for the recommended DIN is the way to go. In this case, it would be to stick with the SPX 12?

E..g


Binding is perhaps the most overlooked part. Much more than just a ”releasing capacity”. It has together with plate quite an impact on the performance and feel of a ski in rigidity and elasticity.
Age—U16 sets start to get fast and athletes stronger and more technically skilled, so they need much sturdier set ups.
All this is of course individual and a 12 might be the right choice for you, but as you say, you see a lot of SPX 15:s on 2:nd hand U16 skis—for a reason.

Edit: just to take the thought to the extreme: have you calculated Tessa Worleys DIN? She would probably be a 6-7 according to the calculation. I know, not really relevant to your U16 athlete, but it starts to happen a lot for some at that age group.

As a coach who has worked with both elite and non-elite U16s ... use the release setting that you are comfortable with -- it's your kid's leg that's going to break if the binding doesn't release. You have way more invested in your athlete than any coach. There are performance benefits to "better" bindings (which transmit everything from the boot to the ski), but, unfortunately, "better" bindings tend to have higher release setting options. At the elite end, maybe the tradeoff is worth going to a higher release setting. For most, it isn't.

Racers tend to use a higher setting than the recommended value at III, but as I got older ... I backed down to the recommended value and never had a prerelease issue while continuing to race elite domestic FIS (i.e., up to NorAms). I also knew I was never going to race world cup, and that I'd gladly trade a few prerelease DNFs for avoiding a possible injury for not coming out when I needed it.

If your kid is on the elite track, you'll know it, and you should 100% ignore everything you read on the internet and instead listen to a trusted coach/advisor or two. Actually, I'd advise that track for almost any scenario.

 

[Doug Briggs]

This doesn't relate directly to the OP's question, but since we are on the topic of race bindings and their settings...

I'll preface this with: I try to post what I actually know and relate my experience and decision making process.

I agree with @S.H. about going higher for elite athletes knowing that racing exceeds even the skier type III+ quite often. It is a trade off of safety by having a release in a fall vs safety by avoiding an undesired release. Note that I don't say pre-release. Bad skiing is going to make a binding come off even at 'racer' settings that exceed manufacturers recommendations. Increasing the release setting due to bad skiing is just playing Russian roulette with an athlete's health.

That said, I race Masters DH and run my DHs at 13. My normal setting for type III is 8. I haven't had an undesired release, nor have I had my skis not come off when I wish they had. I could probably set the release values a touch lower, but I'm balancing the risk of injury and its severity against losing a shoe at 65 mph because I had to make a recovery that involved some torque that might otherwise be considered bad skiing. I'm also pretty good at what I do and as I my only DH fall in the last 10 or so years was in the finish due to a combination of a short finish arena and bad visibility, I haven't had any circumstances that would test my bindings in the real world.

I've also been asked to test bindings that a U16(?) athlete couldn't keep on her feet. They were already set high and I didn't find any issues with binding's release or for that matter forward pressure. Yet she kept losing a ski. I hadn't seen her ski so I couldn't respond to the problem other than that the bindings appeared to work as expected.

All that to say: racing isn't an exact science and without seeing the whole situation, it is hard to know what is the prudent thing to do when setting bindings. A wholistic and individual approach is needed.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Swede]

I guess the answer is: it depends...

 

[Uncle-A]

By the time the U19 is at the max age you should know if that skier is going to be an elite skier to make some type of career out of the sport or at least trade racing to get a college education. Than turning up the DIN setting might be worth it. If not, when an injury may cost a life long issue you have to ask yourself is turning up the DIN a wise thing for a parent to do for their child.

 

[Pdub]

What confuses me about this discussion is that everyone assumes all the risk results from too high a DIN. If my 16 year old son were set at his shop-determined DIN of 5.5 for a GS race, he'd step right out his skis on the first 40 mph left footer. That can be really scary too. And it's guaranteed to happen every time, the DNF rate would be 100% by the fourth gate. Raising the DIN setting for most junior racers is completely routine and definitely safer than the alternative. Applies more to elite racers, but this would hold true for the vast majority who make it to U19. At least where my kids race.

 

[Average Joe]

U-16's racers may span a wide range of abilities, and age differences of up to two years. A lot of growth, skill acquisition, and strength building happens in this time span.
Some train and race at or close to their DIN's, most require higher settings
I'll echo another's advice here, for training, to turn them up only if they have pre-released in the past.
Often I'll check and set a group of U-16's into their bindings on race days, and if I send 20 racers out of the start with bindings set at factory DIN's, I'll bet 19 won't make it to the finish. So yes, I'll eye up the racer, the day, the course....and often bump them up.
Racing with sharp edges on bulletproof surfaces, a pre-release can be just as, or more dangerous than a non-release. I've got no scientific data, but from my experience I'll venture that most injuries are not a result of a non release.

 

[DocGKR]

Yup. If I used a standard DIN release of 7 calculated for my age/weight/BSL, I would have multiple crashes per day just doing normal skiing, let alone racing. In all my years of skiing I have never been hurt by a failed release, but I have had several injuries when bindings had an undesired and unexpected release. Noted author and champion Masters racer Lisa Densmore Ballard discusses this in her book where she describes needing to use a much higher then normal DIN setting for racing--as a 135 lbs female Masters racer she runs a DIN/binding release setting of 9 for SL, 12 for GS, and 14 for SG.