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Uncertified Instructors

Seldomski

All words are made up
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
3,064
Location
'mericuh
Very interesting after reading all 10 pages, considering the pay scale for ski instructors I would like to compare to tennis instructors: it seems that the average wage for ski instructors seems to settle in the $12-16./hr range for most areas whereas the average tennis instructor range is the $45-70./hr range. The game is more or less the same with an actual 4-5 hr work day of actual pay. A golf pro range is $50-90,/hr, my question is why did the ski instructor get left behind over time as other sport coaches continued to gain in wages whereas the ski instructor has fallen behind on the pay scale and he has to pay for his equipment and apparel compared to the tennis or golf pro that shows up in shorts and shirt. The ski instruction industry does not seem to do a lot to push the wage question to ski resorts. Is it because ski resorts can continue to find beginner instructors to keep their schools going and if that is the case then I must assume that the paying students don't know any better. I owned a flight school that paid my flight instructors $20./flight hr over 20+ years ago. Food for thought
Golf/tennis pro can teach pretty much anywhere and very close to population centers. Lots of other avenues to make real money in those locations. Lots of venues to teach at as well - courts owned by schools, public parks, neighborhood owned assets, backyards, etc. You can teach golf swing at a par 3 or driving range. The amount of land you need is very small and teaching can occur nearly year round.

Ski lessons at a resort with lifts is a totally different venue, one which is privately controlled and maintained.

How much money per hour does a flight instructor get? How much total is paid for those courses? I think that would be a closer comparison.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,963
There’s about 3,700 flight instructors in the US.
I don’t see how it compares to skiing?
 

Sherman89

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Posts
73
Location
Nevada
I keep seeing $20./hr mentioned but with the checking I have done on ski schools I only see a few schools paying $20./hr---more like $10.-$15.00/hr. So my thoughts are ski instruction should not be considered a career based on the low weekly monthly wages but really a part time gig for reasons other than making a living and raising a family.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
319
Location
The Rocky Mountains
I keep seeing $20./hr mentioned but with the checking I have done on ski schools I only see a few schools paying $20./hr---more like $10.-$15.00/hr. So my thoughts are ski instruction should not be considered a career based on the low weekly monthly wages but really a part time gig for reasons other than making a living and raising a family.
Kinda depends if we’re talking entry level or not, large destination resort or local hill etc. what is often over looked is to get to where it can be a livable career you have to put a lot of time in. Experienced instructors with a book of business are getting a lot more than $20/hr and many more twice that plus a couple hundred in tips/day. I’ve known a few who pay their rent/mortgage/expenses for the whole season or more from just a few really busy periods and the rest of the season is gravy.

BUT if you are inexperienced (no one cares that you skied since you were in the womb, your an unknown with no teaching experience, no cert and no client list, making you an expense until your trained). The really hard part is suffering those early years at 15 an hour which is often the focus of these posts and I can truly sympathize, been there done that.
 
Last edited:

David

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
Skier
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Posts
1,400
Location
Holland, MI
With the cost of lessons at a resort and how little the instructor will get I would definitely hire outside the resort. Tips from a new "friend" can't be stopped.
 
Thread Starter
TS
SkiSchoolPros

SkiSchoolPros

Impact Ecosystem- ie.Money with Meaning
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Posts
207
Location
Colorado
Very interesting after reading all 10 pages, considering the pay scale for ski instructors I would like to compare to tennis instructors: it seems that the average wage for ski instructors seems to settle in the $12-16./hr range for most areas whereas the average tennis instructor range is the $45-70./hr range. The game is more or less the same with an actual 4-5 hr work day of actual pay. A golf pro range is $50-90,/hr, my question is why did the ski instructor get left behind over time as other sport coaches continued to gain in wages whereas the ski instructor has fallen behind on the pay scale and he has to pay for his equipment and apparel compared to the tennis or golf pro that shows up in shorts and shirt. The ski instruction industry does not seem to do a lot to push the wage question to ski resorts. Is it because ski resorts can continue to find beginner instructors to keep their schools going and if that is the case then I must assume that the paying students don't know any better. I owned a flight school that paid my flight instructors $20./flight hr over 20+ years ago. Food for thought
COMPETITION (or lack thereof) There are more tennis/golf employers and it is easier for them to set up their own shop. In Europe, where there are not USFS granted monopolies, there are multiple ski schools and independent instructors. Lessons cost have as much, instructor comp is better and ski instruction is considered a real career.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,641
Location
PNW aka SEA
With the cost of lessons at a resort and how little the instructor will get I would definitely hire outside the resort. Tips from a new "friend" can't be stopped.

So long no money is changing hands, no worries, but if it is, good luck with that. Speaking for our regional situation, the higher end instruction world is small. It's pretty easy to see and pick out a true knowledgable pro on the hill and there's no way to go to a regional mountain and not be recognized by peers if trying to teach on the low down, not to mention the liability mess that would happen if one's 'friend' was injured while being given 'pointers'.

Last season we saw a guy 'giving tips' to a group of people. I'm sure they got what they paid for. It was humorously awful instruction. So bad, it wasn't worth saying anything. The 'friends' receiving the 'tips' we're being punished enough. :roflmao:
 
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justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Posts
299
Location
Elmira, NY
How much money per hour does a flight instructor get?

I've mentioned in the past how badly that comparison looks for skiing.
Recent grads from a flight mill ("0 time to ATP in 6 months") or aviation college tend to ask $30 - $40/hr.
The grizzled oldtimers, the guys maybe with some military, airline, corporate, can fly anything anywhere in the world, any conditions, seem to still charge $15 - $20 hr. Many don't charge or barely charge for groundwork.

Last Fall for my BFR ("Biennnial Flight Revue"= mandated 2 yr currency review with an instructor) i approached a retired military (20+ yrs direct left seat military flight ops)/current major-airline captain) who was working on his fast experimental at the airport. I told him i had not flown since my last BFR 2 years prior, was rusty, and did not want the statutory 2 hrs ground/1 hour flight & sign off. I wanted to learn to fly again and i wanted him to put me through the ringer. At least "several" sessions over multiple days over perhaps a couple weeks or so weather permitting. He put me off for a bit, then called and said "Look, i'll do it. But it won't be free. People get more out of anything if they have to buy in" I said that was exactly what i expected especially since we did not know each other. "OK, $15/hr, then" He made sure i had it every lesson, too. :) Others i know have gotten the same deal, and it is not unusual across the country. Though as mentioned, the girls trying to pay off recent aviation college and build time to the airlines trend toward $40/hr.

What level ski or golf instructor would compare with that?
Famous WC champ with additional multiple Olympic podiums?
Who has been willing to do the regular reviews, federal clinics, and pay the fees to keep his teaching license current, and often as a matter of their regular employment, taught everyone from beginners to top experts throughout their professional career?

Skiing and GA flying don't really have a lot in common. Skiing is a very kinesthetic activity. Flying is more mental, and by the numbers. They are similar in that they are reality based/reality bites scenarios. If you don't have a good relationship with what is possible vs what you wish would be, there's going to be prompt and often painful or even deadly reminder. But there are a lot of very accomplished, genius pilots, who are completely out of shape. Fitness is an advantage in any activity, but flying is not much about coaching athletic ability. So there's a plus on the ski instructor side. OTOH, when looking at credentials & accomplishments, even a famous WC champ with multiple Olympic podiums is hard to compare with many older flight instructors, who are a lot less expensive.

There are "expensive" schools by champions is some disciplines, such as Patty Wagstaff's aerobatic classes. Even those don't seem unreasonably priced compared to skiing, though.

How much total is paid for those courses? I think that would be a closer comparison.

I think the comparison would be how little the instructor gets.
Aviation is relentlessly costly, but most of it is the equipment & maintenance.
A friend of mine owns this flight school:
If you notice, the total instructor cost for an avid, disciplined, & apt student is $800 for 20 hrs.
Total estimated cost for the private ticket being $6,210.

That is admittedly a low-ball figure - most people today will have on the order of 60 hrs by the check ride. The solo sign-off can happen in as little as 7 hrs dual instruction starting with the introductory flight. Usually under 10. Then the student builds time in the aircraft alone, accomplishing & consolidating per assignments. Then a flight with the instructor, review of the practice, and new assignments for solo work, etc to accomplish capability with all the standard practices for the FAA check ride. The main reason it usually takes longer than 40 hrs today is learning to use the airplane capably within the ever-more complex system and developing safe habits to do so.

Another random point: You can engage any CFI from anywhere, and work out of any airport. The airport cannot prevent a (licensed) instructor from giving lessons even if it cannibalizes from their own flight school.

smt
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,963
I've mentioned in the past how badly that comparison looks for skiing.
Recent grads from a flight mill ("0 time to ATP in 6 months") or aviation college tend to ask $30 - $40/hr.
The grizzled oldtimers, the guys maybe with some military, airline, corporate, can fly anything anywhere in the world, any conditions, seem to still charge $15 - $20 hr. Many don't charge or barely charge for groundwork.

Last Fall for my BFR ("Biennnial Flight Revue"= mandated 2 yr currency review with an instructor) i approached a retired military (20+ yrs direct left seat military flight ops)/current major-airline captain) who was working on his fast experimental at the airport. I told him i had not flown since my last BFR 2 years prior, was rusty, and did not want the statutory 2 hrs ground/1 hour flight & sign off. I wanted to learn to fly again and i wanted him to put me through the ringer. At least "several" sessions over multiple days over perhaps a couple weeks or so weather permitting. He put me off for a bit, then called and said "Look, i'll do it. But it won't be free. People get more out of anything if they have to buy in" I said that was exactly what i expected especially since we did not know each other. "OK, $15/hr, then" He made sure i had it every lesson, too. :) Others i know have gotten the same deal, and it is not unusual across the country. Though as mentioned, the girls trying to pay off recent aviation college and build time to the airlines trend toward $40/hr.

What level ski or golf instructor would compare with that?
Famous WC champ with additional multiple Olympic podiums?
Who has been willing to do the regular reviews, federal clinics, and pay the fees to keep his teaching license current, and often as a matter of their regular employment, taught everyone from beginners to top experts throughout their professional career?

Skiing and GA flying don't really have a lot in common. Skiing is a very kinesthetic activity. Flying is more mental, and by the numbers. They are similar in that they are reality based/reality bites scenarios. If you don't have a good relationship with what is possible vs what you wish would be, there's going to be prompt and often painful or even deadly reminder. But there are a lot of very accomplished, genius pilots, who are completely out of shape. Fitness is an advantage in any activity, but flying is not much about coaching athletic ability. So there's a plus on the ski instructor side. OTOH, when looking at credentials & accomplishments, even a famous WC champ with multiple Olympic podiums is hard to compare with many older flight instructors, who are a lot less expensive.

There are "expensive" schools by champions is some disciplines, such as Patty Wagstaff's aerobatic classes. Even those don't seem unreasonably priced compared to skiing, though.



I think the comparison would be how little the instructor gets.
Aviation is relentlessly costly, but most of it is the equipment & maintenance.
A friend of mine owns this flight school:
If you notice, the total instructor cost for an avid, disciplined, & apt student is $800 for 20 hrs.
Total estimated cost for the private ticket being $6,210.

That is admittedly a low-ball figure - most people today will have on the order of 60 hrs by the check ride. The solo sign-off can happen in as little as 7 hrs dual instruction starting with the introductory flight. Usually under 10. Then the student builds time in the aircraft alone, accomplishing & consolidating per assignments. Then a flight with the instructor, review of the practice, and new assignments for solo work, etc to accomplish capability with all the standard practices for the FAA check ride. The main reason it usually takes longer than 40 hrs today is learning to use the airplane capably within the ever-more complex system and developing safe habits to do so.

Another random point: You can engage any CFI from anywhere, and work out of any airport. The airport cannot prevent a (licensed) instructor from giving lessons even if it cannibalizes from their own flight school.

smt
So Bob Hoover, back in the day, would’ve been cheaper than a newly minted flight instructor?
 

Quandary

Out on the slopes
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Joined
Mar 27, 2020
Posts
844
Location
Colorado & Wisconsin
Kinda depends if we’re talking entry level or not, large destination resort or local hill etc. what is often over looked is to get to where it can be a livable career you have to put a lot of time in. Experienced instructors with a book of business are getting a lot more than $20/hr and many more twice that plus a couple hundred in tips/day. I’ve known a few who pay their rent/mortgage/expenses for the whole season or more from just a few really busy periods and the rest of the season is gravy.

BUT if you are inexperienced (no one cares that you skied since you were in the womb, your an unknown with no teaching experience, no cert and no client list, making you an expense until your trained). The really hard part is suffering those early years at 15 an hour which is often the focus of these posts and I can truly sympathize, been there done that.

They don’t work for Vail resorts!
 

justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Posts
299
Location
Elmira, NY
So Bob Hoover, back in the day, would’ve been cheaper than a newly minted flight instructor?

Bob Hoover is a special case - he famously got airsick when not at the controls himself.
There are several mentions of him instructing for North American, primarily during a 6 week stint in Korea demonstrating bombing technique with the F86. It would be fascinating to learn if he ever did much 1 on 1 instruction outside the military-industrial nexus?

Famous name pilots who do instruct would be closer to name ski & golf instructors & some have schools.
The student is not paying a premium over what they could probably learn from a capable club pro, but for the magic they hope will rub off, meet the star, the larger experience, and the bragging rights. I don't have the capacity to learn what Glenn Plake could teach, nor the knees at my age; but if i played & hit the lottery, i might try to buy a day with him. :) Realistically, i know that for actually learning, slogging it out with local level 3's and doing a lot of practice in between is going to get me further.

It really is economics.
For skiing, many people early in life are prepared to learn to teach for a pass and enough income to spend a whole season/every day on the mountain. So far so similar.
However very few below a level 4 or maybe a 3 with an online following can control the terms of their employment. And, there are apparently tons more students, at specific peak times all winter, than there are high level instructors to serve them. So at least at (frequently occurring) peak times, the market suggests the service should be fairly valuable. But there is an entity, the ski resort, between the customer and the instructor, which controls how the value is assigned.

For flying, people have to build time to get picked up by corporate and hopefully eventually, lucrative airline jobs. Building time in expensive gas guzzling machinery costs a lot. However, instructors can get paid while they build time in expensive machinery owned, maintained and fueled by other people. Any instructor can be hired to work anywhere. Customers are not that common. So the value of instructor time is bid down to the level that relatively rare customers are willing to engage a lot of their time. When they do make it (the old timers), there is (or has been) something of a low key culture of "giving back" if only to do a part to encourage the few who try to get into or stay in the endeavor.

The discussion is interesting to me.
I've on the fence about trying out for being a beginner instructor at a local hill (someone on staff mentioned it to me last year), for access to instruction and clinics to improve myself before i get too old, and to help with the gas cost.....

smt

:)
 
Last edited:

wyowindrunner

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
430
...guy who spend his time staring blankly into the sky?....(Thanks CrossCountry!). I find myself doing that more and more....
Taught at a very small Upper midwest ski hill- but they did compensate instructors with 60% of the lesson fee. A lot of visitors first time involved in snow sports- nearby military base.
 

mister moose

Instigator
Skier
Joined
May 30, 2017
Posts
672
Location
Killington
Flight instruction comparisons to ski instruction has maybe a few commonalities, but that's where it stops.

Basic flight instruction pays low wages with lots of down time between students, schedule cancelations, weather cancelations, etc. You are only paid teaching time. This is similar.

Advanced flight instruction, ATP, type ratings, jet currency, full motion simulator time are all quite pricey. Time is more tightly scheduled. Wages are exponentially higher.

Ski school training leads to a low hourly rate seasonal job. Advanced flight training leads to a 6 figure+ year round income. Interestingly, as an airline pilot you are limited to 35 hours a week and 100 hours per month. Which is about how many hours a busy ski instructor gets.

You can teach at 75 in skiing. You are done at 65 in airline flying. You can fly beyond 65 air taxi or corporate.

As a Captain, you are King once the door closes. You can have someone arrested. You have legal command authority. As a ski instructor, you might be a ski god, but you are never King.

In the airlines you have to wear a uniform. You have to eat lousy food. Your schedule has a lot to do with seniority. This is similar.

You can teach skiing unlicensed your first month after a few days training. Before you can teach flying you'll need in excess of 250 flight hours and at least 4 licenses.

Ski instruction is mostly done at resort ski schools. They control the slopes. Flight instruction is also done at formal flight schools, not because it's required, but because that's where the bulk of the rental fleet is. Most small airports have only one flight school, but that does not create a single source like a ski resort. Everyone flies in the same airspace, no owner permission required.

There is no such thing as a 5 person class in flight.
There is no such thing as a flat spin in skiing.
Your student pretty much can't kill the ski instructor.
There is no tipping in flight instruction.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,683
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I've mentioned in the past how badly that comparison looks for skiing.
Recent grads from a flight mill ("0 time to ATP in 6 months") or aviation college tend to ask $30 - $40/hr.
The grizzled oldtimers, the guys maybe with some military, airline, corporate, can fly anything anywhere in the world, any conditions, seem to still charge $15 - $20 hr. Many don't charge or barely charge for groundwork.

Last Fall for my BFR ("Biennnial Flight Revue"= mandated 2 yr currency review with an instructor) i approached a retired military (20+ yrs direct left seat military flight ops)/current major-airline captain) who was working on his fast experimental at the airport. I told him i had not flown since my last BFR 2 years prior, was rusty, and did not want the statutory 2 hrs ground/1 hour flight & sign off. I wanted to learn to fly again and i wanted him to put me through the ringer. At least "several" sessions over multiple days over perhaps a couple weeks or so weather permitting. He put me off for a bit, then called and said "Look, i'll do it. But it won't be free. People get more out of anything if they have to buy in" I said that was exactly what i expected especially since we did not know each other. "OK, $15/hr, then" He made sure i had it every lesson, too. :) Others i know have gotten the same deal, and it is not unusual across the country. Though as mentioned, the girls trying to pay off recent aviation college and build time to the airlines trend toward $40/hr.

What level ski or golf instructor would compare with that?
Famous WC champ with additional multiple Olympic podiums?
Who has been willing to do the regular reviews, federal clinics, and pay the fees to keep his teaching license current, and often as a matter of their regular employment, taught everyone from beginners to top experts throughout their professional career?

Skiing and GA flying don't really have a lot in common. Skiing is a very kinesthetic activity. Flying is more mental, and by the numbers. They are similar in that they are reality based/reality bites scenarios. If you don't have a good relationship with what is possible vs what you wish would be, there's going to be prompt and often painful or even deadly reminder. But there are a lot of very accomplished, genius pilots, who are completely out of shape. Fitness is an advantage in any activity, but flying is not much about coaching athletic ability. So there's a plus on the ski instructor side. OTOH, when looking at credentials & accomplishments, even a famous WC champ with multiple Olympic podiums is hard to compare with many older flight instructors, who are a lot less expensive.

There are "expensive" schools by champions is some disciplines, such as Patty Wagstaff's aerobatic classes. Even those don't seem unreasonably priced compared to skiing, though.



I think the comparison would be how little the instructor gets.
Aviation is relentlessly costly, but most of it is the equipment & maintenance.
A friend of mine owns this flight school:
If you notice, the total instructor cost for an avid, disciplined, & apt student is $800 for 20 hrs.
Total estimated cost for the private ticket being $6,210.

That is admittedly a low-ball figure - most people today will have on the order of 60 hrs by the check ride. The solo sign-off can happen in as little as 7 hrs dual instruction starting with the introductory flight. Usually under 10. Then the student builds time in the aircraft alone, accomplishing & consolidating per assignments. Then a flight with the instructor, review of the practice, and new assignments for solo work, etc to accomplish capability with all the standard practices for the FAA check ride. The main reason it usually takes longer than 40 hrs today is learning to use the airplane capably within the ever-more complex system and developing safe habits to do so.

Another random point: You can engage any CFI from anywhere, and work out of any airport. The airport cannot prevent a (licensed) instructor from giving lessons even if it cannibalizes from their own flight school.

smt
Hard to make money being paid $20/hr when your shelling out guessing at least $200/hr for fuel. Also you need so many flight hours/year. I guess it's nice if someone pays for your fuel/plane/ etc. while you get your hours in. As a flight instructor, do you need so many flight instructing hours to keep your instructor status?
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,963
^ Well there’s a chance he’ll die if he lands on his head/neck, but likely it’s survivable.

I’ve watched a lot of aviation discussions on stall/spin accidents into the ground on youtube recently. Heh, not sure why.

Including the one by the flight instructor on a demonstration flight where the large, strong, passenger in the left seat apparently panicked on takeoff and pulled the yoke back so hard they stalled and spun into the ground. Killing both. Just not enough altitude to recover.

The twin engine one with 6 on board that went from takeoff to blowing up on impact in 17 seconds.
Then the two small jet takeoffs where they forgot to release the parking brake on takeoff, and didn’t abort. One was fatal, the other they were lucky and got out as the plane burned.

So…bit of a difference.
 

Sherman89

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Posts
73
Location
Nevada
Hard to make money being paid $20/hr when your shelling out guessing at least $200/hr for fuel. Also you need so many flight hours/year. I guess it's nice if someone pays for your fuel/plane/ etc. while you get your hours in. As a flight instructor, do you need so many flight instructing hours to keep your instructor status?
There are no minimum instructing hours.
 

Sherman89

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Posts
73
Location
Nevada
^ Well there’s a chance he’ll die if he lands on his head/neck, but likely it’s survivable.

I’ve watched a lot of aviation discussions on stall/spin accidents into the ground on youtube recently. Heh, not sure why.

Including the one by the flight instructor on a demonstration flight where the large, strong, passenger in the left seat apparently panicked on takeoff and pulled the yoke back so hard they stalled and spun into the ground. Killing both. Just not enough altitude to recover.

The twin engine one with 6 on board that went from takeoff to blowing up on impact in 17 seconds.
Then the two small jet takeoffs where they forgot to release the parking brake on takeoff, and didn’t abort. One was fatal, the other they were lucky and got out as the plane burned.

So…bit of a difference.
I bel;ieve the accident on takeoff that you are referring to was a King Air that augured in on takeoff because of a incompetent pilot that did not follow the preflight checklist which included the checking of the throttle lever friction screws and tighten if needed. It is a known fact the left throttle lever will not stay in the throttle up position if the pilot does not insure the friction clamps are tight and/or he holds the throttles forward/up with his hand. He should hold the throttles by hand at least to a safe altitude. He failed both and killed people. As soon as that left throttle lever went to flight idle that plane rolled over and went in.
 

crosscountry

Sock Puppet
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Pass Pulled
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Jun 6, 2021
Posts
1,751
Location
all over the place
How many profession that pay their experienced worker less than 2x of their rookies?

(There're JOBS that doesn't pay their experienced staff not much more than rookies. But most of those jobs are unskilled jobs, not "professional" careers)
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,963
I bel;ieve the accident on takeoff that you are referring to was a King Air that augured in on takeoff because of a incompetent pilot that did not follow the preflight checklist
Yes, that one. The point was the consequences in aviation come very quickly, are severe, and are often unsurvivable.
Nothing like skiing.

Highly competent pilot. Top gun school, most hrs of anyone in an F-14, 1,200 carrier landings, air shows, etc. Dale Snodgrass.
Skipped a preflight check of the controls, and they were locked. Eight seconds total.
81826904-1311-4AFC-BC98-5E5BF4E8B84E.jpeg

NTSB
 

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