Uncertified Instructors

[jimtransition]

Exactly.
Most instructors have to work out in the elements, in a sport that the resorts themselves declare is "inherently dangerous" (but don't give battle pay to instructors), where the "professional" has to cover the costs of equipment (including helmet, boots, skis, boards, clothing) and certifications (which benefits the resorts), not to mention gas/tolls/food-- all for an insulting pay rate and a chance to stick one's hand out groveling for tips.
It might've worked back in the ski bum days, but seriously, who in their right mind thinks this is a good deal anymore? What kind of other "professionals" put up with this? Calling oneself a "professional" while groveling for tips is just a really bad joke- a joke on the instructors.

I agree that PSIA should stand for Part-time Ski Instructors of America rather than 'professional', but it seems like you are hating on the instructors for getting a bad deal. It's not their fault, it's the monopoly system that is exploitative of both instructors and students.

 

[ThomasH]

it seems like you are hating on the instructors for getting a bad deal. It's not their fault, it's the monopoly system that is exploitative of both instructors and students.

I'm hating on the monopolistic resorts that exploit the instructors by offloading virtually every cost onto them while compensating next to nothing. Like most "professions" it takes years of study & experience to become effective- add to that the serious physical ability just to be able to do it (not a requirement in other professions). Going out in the elements every day & knowing how to effectively communicate with and actually improve customers skiing/riding isn't like changing bed sheets- it's physically and mentally challenging. All of these factors should result in a living wage at a minimum (the European model) but the resorts simply view ski school as a $$$ cow.
Let me ask the instructors- in the time since you started instructing, a) how much has the cost of a lesson increased at your resort, and b) how much (if any) has your pay increased? The question almost answers itself. Which is why we're now seeing organizing efforts and lawsuits.

 

[dovski]

There are a lot of skiers who also do mountain biking. (I don't).

Serious question: Is there any such thing as Mountain Biking lessons? Are there Mountain Biking schools? Do the people advocating for skiers to take lessons also advocate for Mountain Biking lessons?

Similar questions for surfing and for skateboarding.

It seems to me that many of these sports (including skiing) do not have a culture of formalized training, but more informal "try to do it like that guy" follow-the-leader type of learning.

Yes there are mountain biking lessons and schools. Most mountains with downhill courses also have lessons, group, private, weekly and camps. You also have numerous mountain bike societies that offer lessons, clinics and camps. Check out Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance in WA. If you want specialized training from a former World cup Athletes check out FluidRide or SweetLines. In the Bend, OR area I really like CogWild and Cascadia Junior Cycling which is affiliated with CogWild. Many MTB shops also offer guided/group rides and there are numerous private coaches as well. My knowledge is limited so this is really just the tip of the iceberg. As an FYI if you ever get the chance regardless of your skill level the Trail Essentials class taught by Simon Lawton at FluidRide is game changing and private lessons with him are enlightening

 

[bitflogger]

I'm not sure about all ages, but the old school ski club and facility I'm involved with has done a super job with little kids, beginners and people with special needs on skis (alpine, Nordic, jumping, biathlon) and MTB by seeking good teachers and volunteers above all.

We do have some PSIA and formally certified people but an effort to get people started in outdoor and lifelong sports has been much better after abandoning trying to have a bunch of certified instructors and too much rigidity.

This does not mean I'm against (same for the institution) formally certified instructors. We do that too, but getting more good people with the right attitude has been fantastic for developing great kids.

 

[fatbob]

It's not their fault, it's the monopoly system that is exploitative of both instructors and students.

It kinda is if they aren't prepared to unionise and/or exercise some form of collective power.

 

[Philpug]

Mountain biking has PMBIA which borrows a lot from PSIA and is kind of in its infancy. I think it actually does do a pretty good job of explaining how MTB actually works.

I still think about some of the MTB tips you gave me when we rode at Killington years ago.

 

[Philpug]

Ski schools are simply a department of a ski resort and are subject to the same profit requirements as F&B, Retail and Lodging. The accounting office does not really care about the quality as long as it is profitable. I know this is a backwards way of thinking, I believe when you offer a better product is when you can become more profitable especially when if comes to the most important skiers, (particularly) the first timers and those who are sponges and want to improve in the sport.

 

[dovski]

Ski schools are simply a department of a ski resort and are subject to the same profit requirements as F&B, Retail and Lodging. The accounting office does not really care about the quality as long as it is profitable. I know this is a backwards way of thinking, I believe when you offer a better product is when you can become more profitable especially when if comes to the most important skiers, (particularly) the first timers and those who are sponges and want to improve in the sport.

What is really sad about this approach is that from a business perspective it is incredibly shortsighted. Ski schools should be viewed as an investment in customer acquisition and something that increases the lifetime value of each customer. Simply put the better one’s experience with ski school the more likely one is to ski again and more frequently all of which adds up to more money for the resort long term from that individual. The minute they stop thinking about ski school as a pure bottom line play and more a customer acquisition and retention tool that is when things will change. It would be very interesting to do a study on the impact great instruction has on how people adopt skiing and for the resorts how much the spend as a result. It seems that the only places that think that way are the smaller Indy resorts that are very much part of the local community and that is a shame.

 

[Yo Momma]

What is really sad about this approach is that from a business perspective it is incredibly shortsighted. Ski schools should be viewed as an investment in customer acquisition and something that increases the lifetime value of each customer. Simply put the better one’s experience with ski school the more likely one is to ski again and more frequently all of which adds up to more money for the resort long term from that individual. The minute they stop thinking about ski school as a pure bottom line play and more a customer acquisition and retention tool that is when things will change. It would be very interesting to do a study on the impact great instruction has on how people adopt skiing and for the resorts how much the spend as a result. It seems that the only places that think that way are the smaller Indy resorts that are very much part of the local community and that is a shame.

This is the classic "Quantity vs Quality" equation that I've run into during my entire career of care to underserved communities. It's a dance that requires a careful choreography to maintain balance. I'm fortunate enough to have expertise in a field that is "needed" in an area that does not have a surplus of dental professionals. That gives me more of a voice w/ our Federally Qualified Health Center Admin (FQHC). I can push harder to maintain the Quality quotient. In larger establishments, dentists...ski instructors... etc... do not seem to have that voice, so admin pushes harder and offsets the balance towards Quantity.

Trying to stay positive here, but maintaining that balance is critical to the company remaining solvent and the employees being able to continue to work. That makes the choreography between the players critical. In this case, mutual respect between the ski instructors and admin guides the dance. That is why as the consumer, if you have a choice, you have to find a place where that dance is balanced. Too heavy in either direction, has pitfalls.

 

[crosscountry]

There are several others with similar frustrations that come to this site - so some posters on this site skew toward the 'disgruntled' side regarding lessons and have some negative experiences to vent.

I think the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

Many students who had "negative" experiences never bother to vent on a ski forum but simply stop taking lessons. Contrast that to those who had positive experience who would keep on taking more lessons.

Are we having a strong demand in lessons from return students who have had lots of lessons? Or are we having mostly entry level students who only take a few lessons?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

Many students who had "negative" experiences never bother to vent on a ski forum but simply stop taking lessons. Contrast that to those who had positive experience who would keep on taking more lessons.

Are we having a strong demand in lessons from return students who have had lots of lessons? Or are we having mostly entry level students who only take a few lessons?

Mostly entry level or first time lesson takers if talking about adults here in the North East.

 

[geepers]

I think the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

Many students who had "negative" experiences never bother to vent on a ski forum but simply stop taking lessons. Contrast that to those who had positive experience who would keep on taking more lessons.

Are we having a strong demand in lessons from return students who have had lots of lessons? Or are we having mostly entry level students who only take a few lessons?

Can't speak for all resorts however the mountains where I usually ski in interior BC have good demand in the higher end lesson groups most of the time. At, say, BW's Masters Weeks there's certainly a greater number of lower level groups but there's plenty of top groups too.

Not surprised that there's less demand for higher level lessons. People often reach a state of competence where they are quite content with what they can do in their sport. They have the neither the inclination nor the time to devote to perpetual improvement once the effort vs improvement ratio gets too large.

 

[markojp]

I think the proof of the pudding is in eating it.

Many students who had "negative" experiences never bother to vent on a ski forum but simply stop taking lessons. Contrast that to those who had positive experience who would keep on taking more lessons.

Are we having a strong demand in lessons from return students who have had lots of lessons? Or are we having mostly entry level students who only take a few lessons?

And many who've had good experiences say even less other than to their friends.

You've had crappy experiences with teaching and lessons. It seems you're looking for affirmation that your experience is the norm and not the exception.

(FWIW, yes, we have a good number of returners.)

 

[crosscountry]

And many who've had good experiences say even less other than to their friends.

You've had crappy experiences with teaching and lessons. It seems you're looking for affirmation that your experience is the norm and not the exception.

(FWIW, yes, we have a good number of returners.)

I'm not the one who needs affirmation. The ski school does.

 

[markojp]

I'm not the one who needs affirmation. The ski school does.

Which ski school? All of them? Nationally? Internationally?Or maybe just the ones you've experienced, which is apparently every ski area in the northeast which seem to set the bar for some universal experience?
You're trolling.

 

[crosscountry]

You're trolling.

You should ignore them then.
But why are you responding to practically every post?

 

[Dr. Mark]

Mostly entry level or first time lesson takers if talking about adults here in the North East.

Same here in the Southeast, in my limited but growing experience as an instructor.

Yesterday the local elementary school sent fourth-graders up to the mountain. Before we were through, one of them said, "This is the most fun I've ever had!"

I'm finding this job has lots of benefits if you count experiences like that.

 

[OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge]

I'm a new part timer and I really just can't justify taking another 3 days off my full-time job to stand around in the cold for 3 days in order to get through the perhaps 3 hours of actual content in their Alpine 1. It would take me 3 seasons of the minimal pay bump to make up for the money too. The only benefit is getting higher in the priority and not doing as many first-timer lessons.

That last point is the paradoxically my biggest gripe w how the PSIA and the resorts interact. They put the least experienced instructors on first-timers (ie revenue potential plus arguably the most in need of skilled teaching) and they want the most skilled instructors to basically be ski guides on the tougher terrain. The whole thing seems designed to reward the instructors who certify with more fun days, not actually do the best for the customers.

The day after they flunked me, I had the best tips I've ever had (and a few hugs) so I must be doing something right.

 

[markojp]

When you're in a wedge, you're on edge....

.... and another, 'they flunked me'. Exams are almost always failed for very clear reasons, most (not all) of which have nothing to do with the examiner. Does that preclude you from giving a great experience? No. Should you expect to be given higher level assignments with very little teaching experience? No. There is no doubt that my L3 instructors have a better level of understanding and in general can give a better lesson. Do we have young, less experienced instructors who connect very well with kids, think on their feet, and make skiing safe and fun for guests? Yep. Do I ask them to teach higher level lessons? No. It's not in their wheelhouse.... yet. When coaching advanced and expert skiers in all mountain skiing, am I just a tour guide? No. That not what I'm hired to do. I'm hired to improve their skiing. I'm also fully certified and have a good deal of experience teaching all levels of skiing and training instructors to do the same.

 

[markojp]

When you're in a wedge, you're on edge....

.Exams are almost always failed for very clear reasons, most (not all) of which have nothing to do with the examiner. I failed two before passing. Does that preclude you from giving a great experience? No. Should you expect to be given higher level assignments with very little teaching experience or a lack of understanding commensurate to the task? No. There is no doubt that my L3 instructors have a better level of understanding and in general can give a better lesson. I can also assign them to pretty much anything that comes in the door. Do we have young, less experienced instructors who connect very well with kids, think on their feet, and make skiing safe and fun for guests as well as improving their students' skiing or snowboarding? Yep. Do I ask them to teach higher level lessons? No. It's not in their wheelhouse.... yet. When coaching advanced and expert skiers in all mountain skiing, am I just a tour guide? No. That not what I'm vetted and hired to do. I'm there to improve their skiing. The certification journey opened doors, but it isn't, nor does it need to be for everybody.