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Uncertified Instructors

OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge

Booting up
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Jan 22, 2023
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Colorado
Let’s just say that a certain pattern in who passed in my section and who didn’t was readily apparent. The full timers were pissed.

I’ve done a lot of professional certifications over the years (easily 25-30 exams including practicals) and this one seemed pretty arbitrary in practice and preparing for it didn’t seem valuable in comparison to the resort’s own training which was much more clear and focused.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
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Nov 12, 2015
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PNW aka SEA
I dont know that PSIA concerns itself with who's full or part time.

Which division? East?
 
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LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,725
Location
New England
Let’s just say that a certain pattern in who passed in my section and who didn’t was readily apparent. The full timers were pissed.

I’ve done a lot of professional certifications over the years (easily 25-30 exams including practicals) and this one seemed pretty arbitrary in practice and preparing for it didn’t seem valuable in comparison to the resort’s own training which was much more clear and focused.
It sounds like you think you should have passed your LI exam, and since you didn't you think the examiners are being unfair, playing favorites, or just something else that has nothing to do with how you performed in the exam.

Do you know what parts of the exam contributed the most to your failure? Was it your skiing? Your teaching? Your knowledge base of PSIA technical language? Your memorization of stuff from the manuals?

Did you do an organized prep course for the exam led by a PSIA person who does such preps for rookie instructors?
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
It sounds like you think you should have passed your LI exam, and since you didn't you think the examiners are being unfair, playing favorites, or just something else that has nothing to do with how you performed in the exam.

Do you know what parts of the exam contributed the most to your failure? Was it your skiing? Your teaching? Your knowledge base of PSIA technical language? Your memorization of stuff from the manuals?

Did you do an organized prep course for the exam led by a PSIA person who does such preps for rookie instructors?
Another source of failure is unprofessional behavior.
 

OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge

Booting up
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Joined
Jan 22, 2023
Posts
14
Location
Colorado
I actually didn't expect to pass. I was coming off an illness, hadn't skied in 10 days, and I knew MA was my weak spot on the first day. I did feel like I was well into the middle of the pack during the ski and teach days. When the scores came out, it seemed at first that we had just drawn a tougher examiner than most (there were a lot of people taking the test and our pass rate was ~60% whereas the other sections it was more 85%+) but upon comparing notes within and between sections, some implicit bias in the scoring seems apparent (all the men failed). The noticeably weakest skier in the group passed. The second strongest skier did not. I observed all the teach sessions except one and fell solidly in the middle of the pack.

My gripe is less about the examiner than about having an 18 hour practical exam that feels way too subjective and inadequately structured. Either ALP1 is supposed to be easy or it's not but the official score sheet makes it look like you need around 1-2 wins (of 4-6 potential wins) on each line item to pass, but my scoring seemed to be more along the lines of needing most or all to get the 4 points. In my prior professional exams, practicals have much more objective and clear scoring. The topic outlines & reading lists often run several pages. There is a clear "golden moment" in my prior practical exams where you know with ~90% certainty that you have reached a passing score. This exam felt like there was no golden moment except on the teach day but that turned out to not be clear either.
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
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Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
2,640
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Beaverton OR USA
(there were a lot of people taking the test and our pass rate was ~60% whereas the other sections it was more 85%+) but upon comparing notes within and between sections, some implicit bias in the scoring seems apparent (all the men failed).

If I'm reading this correctly:
  • You had at least 60% of the test group were women. This is unusually large percentage.
  • You had ALL of the men fail. This is a red flag, unless you group only had 1 or 2 men in it.
  • Other groups had a pass rate of 85% which is a big difference to your group
A few questions pop up:
  • Was there any initiative for more diversity in the ski school?
  • What were the raw numbers of men/women in the groups and the raw numbers for pass/fail?
  • In the groups where 85% passed, what were the % of men/women in the group and for pass/fail?
  • How were the groups arranged? (Level 1, Level 2 ; some other way?)
  • What is the historical average pass rate, and is it significantly different for men than for women?
 

OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge

Booting up
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Jan 22, 2023
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14
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Colorado
The only results I know for sure are that we had around 4-5 groups of 8 in our L1 sections and in most of those groups it was around 7/8 people passed. Our group I was told it was 5/8 and all 3 men failed. I also know that all our CS1 candidates (2-3 sections of that) passed because they announced it first. Isn't CS1 supposed to be harder than L1?

I had a feeling that for the skiing portions, the examiner was trying to observe me based on my clothing and was looking at the left zipper of my jacket (which has a yellow whistle) and thought that was my center zipper because I kept being told my upper body wasn't pointing downhill even when I was.
 

whumber

Putting on skis
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Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Posts
72
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Killington, VT
I had a feeling that for the skiing portions, the examiner was trying to observe me based on my clothing and was looking at the left zipper of my jacket (which has a yellow whistle) and thought that was my center zipper because I kept being told my upper body wasn't pointing downhill even when I was.
I can pretty much guarantee your zipper had nothing to do with it, the examiner would be watching for leg movement. At L1 you're far more likely to fail due to issues with your teaching knowledge than skiing ability. Even with the revised standards the skiing requirements are still pretty low for L1.
 

OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge

Booting up
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Colorado
I
I can pretty much guarantee your zipper had nothing to do with it, the examiner would be watching for leg movement. At L1 you're far more likely to fail due to issues with your teaching knowledge than skiing ability. Even with the revised standards the skiing requirements are still pretty low for L1.
I didn’t pass any of the days. Failing the ski day seemed like arbitrary bullshit seeing as I’ve been skiing 30+ days/yr for the last 6 years and have taken 6 days of top level lessons (Aspen Highlands and Taos) in the last two years. I’m not diving into Corbets but I’m confidently lapping doubles as long as the snow is soft. This was pretty much the first time in years I’ve heard anything but praise or minor constructive feedback for my ski form.

I’ve taken enough exams over the years to know that even if the other men in my group somehow convince PSIA that the examiner or scoring was way off, all they would do is give us a test voucher at best. The power can go off in a test center when you are 99% done and if they can’t recover your exam, even if they do, they won’t make it a pass. That’s why I said earlier that really there is nothing that is going to motivate me for another PSIA test that is 3 days long for so little impact on my day to day. It’s one of two paths available to be cleared to teach green lessons.
 
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Jilly

Lead Cougar
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Nov 12, 2015
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Belleville, Ontario,/ Mont Tremblant, Quebec
Not sure about PSIA, but for CSIA, you have to ski pretty. You have to demonstrate the movements in the correct order and be the picture. I failed wedge turns, because my wedge was too big.

If you are really interested in perusing this, you need to figure out what went right and what needs work. Then get it together.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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7,684
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I

I didn’t pass any of the days. Failing the ski day seemed like arbitrary bullshit seeing as I’ve been skiing 30+ days/yr for the last 6 years and have taken 6 days of top level lessons (Aspen Highlands and Taos) in the last two years. I’m not diving into Corbets but I’m confidently lapping doubles as long as the snow is soft. This was pretty much the first time in years I’ve heard anything but praise or minor constructive feedback for my ski form.

I’ve taken enough exams over the years to know that even if the other men in my group somehow convince PSIA that the examiner or scoring was way off, all they would do is give us a test voucher at best. The power can go off in a test center when you are 99% done and if they can’t recover your exam, even if they do, they won’t make it a pass. That’s why I said earlier that really there is nothing that is going to motivate me for another PSIA test that is 3 days long for so little impact on my day to day. It’s one of two paths available to be cleared to teach green lessons.
Never been a ski instructor, or attempted a ski instructor test, but listening to you and others in the past, it sounds like you failed the "stupid human tricks" (puts on flame suit :ogbiggrin::duck:) part of the skiing test.

You have to do things in a certain way - the way they want things done. You have to show subtle differences in the way you initiate a wedge turn for instance, which is supposed to tell them that you have mastered some part of their required form, e.g. you can pivot as well as tip, don't have a stem etc..

You may ski great, but just because you ski great, does not mean you fit the mold that passes their test. I have to get re-certified for the "on-snow" part of my Canadian Ski Patrol certification every three years. I pretty much carve everywhere except moguls for three years, unless I'm hauling a toboggan. Then I practice up on my sideways skiing - side-slips, pivot slips, falling leaf, short radius turns, etc. I read up and figure out what it is I have to show during the test, and it's not ripping turns down gnarly terrain.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,296
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
I

I didn’t pass any of the days. Failing the ski day seemed like arbitrary bullshit seeing as I’ve been skiing 30+ days/yr for the last 6 years and have taken 6 days of top level lessons (Aspen Highlands and Taos) in the last two years. I’m not diving into Corbets but I’m confidently lapping doubles as long as the snow is soft. This was pretty much the first time in years I’ve heard anything but praise or minor constructive feedback for my ski form.

I’ve taken enough exams over the years to know that even if the other men in my group somehow convince PSIA that the examiner or scoring was way off, all they would do is give us a test voucher at best. The power can go off in a test center when you are 99% done and if they can’t recover your exam, even if they do, they won’t make it a pass. That’s why I said earlier that really there is nothing that is going to motivate me for another PSIA test that is 3 days long for so little impact on my day to day. It’s one of two paths available to be cleared to teach green lessons.

Hmmm... self assessing our skiing is very difficult. What we often think/feel we are doing is not what we are actually doing. And it's harder for skills that involve a style element - that is, the association wants you to ski in a certain way.

And it's not a question of your ability to make it down difficult runs. It's a matter of skiing in a way that demos to students what they are trying to learn - well, at least according to that association's way of doing things. It may well be that an athletic skier doesn't make the grade on that criteria whilst a less strong skier demos as needed.

(Example: my son is a ski patroller and a very strong, athletic skier. I'm constantly amazed at the catlike reflexes and versatility he displays. But the style is inherently uncopiable. It'd about as far as you an get from technically correct skiing.)

One tip that helped me was to NOT look at any of the other candidates (except where it is needed for, say, MA/teaching) as they may well be doing it wrong. For the skills assessment section, watch the examiner demos like a hawk. And then look at anything but the other candidates until after your run/s are complete.

I've taken the view that examiners are like the referee in a sports game. There's no point in arguing. Just do the stuff so well that we're far enough away from being a borderline case that failure to meet standard is not an option.
 

crosscountry

Sock Puppet
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Pass Pulled
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all over the place
Hmmm... self assessing our skiing is very difficult. What we often think/feel we are doing is not what we are actually doing. And it's harder for skills that involve a style element - that is, the association wants you to ski in a certain way.

And it's not a question of your ability to make it down difficult runs. It's a matter of skiing in a way that demos to students what they are trying to learn - well, at least according to that association's way of doing things. It may well be that an athletic skier doesn't make the grade on that criteria whilst a less strong skier demos as needed.

(Example: my son is a ski patroller and a very strong, athletic skier. I'm constantly amazed at the catlike reflexes and versatility he displays. But the style is inherently uncopiable. It'd about as far as you an get from technically correct skiing.)

One tip that helped me was to NOT look at any of the other candidates (except where it is needed for, say, MA/teaching) as they may well be doing it wrong. For the skills assessment section, watch the examiner demos like a hawk. And then look at anything but the other candidates until after your run/s are complete.

I've taken the view that examiners are like the referee in a sports game. There's no point in arguing. Just do the stuff so well that we're far enough away from being a borderline case that failure to meet standard is not an option.
Ultimately, a ski instructor is a teacher. If a exam candidate can't even figure out what needs improving from the examiner, what does that say about the now-student-future-teacher's communication ability?
 

OnTheEdgeNotTheWedge

Booting up
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Jan 22, 2023
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Colorado
Not sure about PSIA, but for CSIA, you have to ski pretty. You have to demonstrate the movements in the correct order and be the picture. I failed wedge turns, because my wedge was too big.

If you are really interested in perusing this, you need to figure out what went right and what needs work. Then get it together.
Yeah the wedge seemed to be the comment I got at the end though I didn't hear anything about it during.

That said, I'm not interested in pursuing certification after this experience. I went because they said I'd probably pass and they encouraged us to go for it. If I went through the whole pod training and another exam, that's 9 days of my time which is 100% not worth it to me. Placing a nominal value on my time away from my real job, that's a lot more than just buying my own ski pass & renting a locker. Teaching the kids to ski is fun, the PSIA stuff is the opposite of fun.
 

whumber

Putting on skis
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Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Posts
72
Location
Killington, VT
Hmmm... self assessing our skiing is very difficult. What we often think/feel we are doing is not what we are actually doing. And it's harder for skills that involve a style element - that is, the association wants you to ski in a certain way.
This is so accurate. I've had so many lessons where somebody tells me they want to "improve" their carving and after watching them I realize what they think is a carved turn isn't even close.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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Nov 12, 2015
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6,357
Never been a ski instructor, or attempted a ski instructor test, but listening to you and others in the past, it sounds like you failed the "stupid human tricks" (puts on flame suit :ogbiggrin::duck:) part of the skiing test.
In L1 there are no stupid human tricks.

Look here at the First page you'd access when signing up for the L1 Exam. Look at how many resources are available. All of the manuals are there. If you have read the Level 1 exam guide, you should be on the right track.


Ideally, a Level 1 certification would show that the instructor is an expert at teaching beginner level lessons.

Note that as Mike King alluded to "people skills" are assessed. The candidate is being evaluated the whole time from the minute he rolls into the parking lot until the exam is done.

I would say though that nobody should be surprised when they are unsuccessful at the exam, there should be signs on the first day.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
I

I didn’t pass any of the days. Failing the ski day seemed like arbitrary bullshit seeing as I’ve been skiing 30+ days/yr for the last 6 years and have taken 6 days of top level lessons (Aspen Highlands and Taos) in the last two years. I’m not diving into Corbets but I’m confidently lapping doubles as long as the snow is soft. This was pretty much the first time in years I’ve heard anything but praise or minor constructive feedback for my ski form.

I’ve taken enough exams over the years to know that even if the other men in my group somehow convince PSIA that the examiner or scoring was way off, all they would do is give us a test voucher at best. The power can go off in a test center when you are 99% done and if they can’t recover your exam, even if they do, they won’t make it a pass. That’s why I said earlier that really there is nothing that is going to motivate me for another PSIA test that is 3 days long for so little impact on my day to day. It’s one of two paths available to be cleared to teach green lessons.
There are many skills involved in skiing. There are a lot of people who can lap double blacks (or even dive into Corbett's) who may not exhibit the ability to demonstrate those skills. Frankly, an extra helping of testosterone or rotation may make up for some deficiency in fore/aft balance, outside ski pressure, or regulation of pressure. So many of the ski tasks, which are designed not as "stupid human tricks" but rather tests to exhibit a skill, are present to highlight your ability to demonstrate appropriate skills to a Level 1-4 skier. Take a look at your assessment form and reflect on what it suggests you need to work on to be an effective instructor who will develop those skiers in a fashion that they don't have to return to remedial work to eliminate ineffective movement patterns, or your communication skills to effectively coach them, or your ability to identify what is happening in their movement patterns that affects their ski performance. All of the exams are not tests of your ability to ski; rather they are exams for your ability to assess, teach and demonstrate both skiing and the skills that affect ski performance. And to present yourself as a professional exhibiting professionalism in all aspects of your time on the hill.

At the time I sat for my Level 1, I had attended 3 or 4 Epic Ski academy courses, spent 6+ years in weekly group lesson programs at the level 9 level, and had received several weeks of coaching from a PSIA demo team member. I had spent 2 weeks ski touring in Kashmir on super steep terrain, and had skied the double blacks at Big Sky, Jackson, Telluride, Breckenridge, Copper, A Basin, Snowbird, Snow Basin, and Alta. I nearly failed because I could barely do a wedge turn. But there were deficiencies in my skiing that all of that training and experience had failed to address. Sometimes it takes work to overcome those elements. I'm now in my 10th season teaching, and I'm still working on all aspects of my skiing, MA, and teaching.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,641
Location
PNW aka SEA
I actually didn't expect to pass. I was coming off an illness, hadn't skied in 10 days, and I knew MA was my weak spot on the first day. I did feel like I was well into the middle of the pack during the ski and teach days. When the scores came out, it seemed at first that we had just drawn a tougher examiner than most (there were a lot of people taking the test and our pass rate was ~60% whereas the other sections it was more 85%+) but upon comparing notes within and between sections, some implicit bias in the scoring seems apparent (all the men failed). The noticeably weakest skier in the group passed. The second strongest skier did not. I observed all the teach sessions except one and fell solidly in the middle of the pack.

My gripe is less about the examiner than about having an 18 hour practical exam that feels way too subjective and inadequately structured. Either ALP1 is supposed to be easy or it's not but the official score sheet makes it look like you need around 1-2 wins (of 4-6 potential wins) on each line item to pass, but my scoring seemed to be more along the lines of needing most or all to get the 4 points. In my prior professional exams, practicals have much more objective and clear scoring. The topic outlines & reading lists often run several pages. There is a clear "golden moment" in my prior practical exams where you know with ~90% certainty that you have reached a passing score. This exam felt like there was no golden moment except on the teach day but that turned out to not be clear either.

18 hour exam for L1? Where? There are no 'wins'. Anyone can download the evaluation cards for each level in each discipline. It's pretty clear what 'they' are looking for. 1-3 do not pass a section... 4-6 does. L1 exams can also be given in house by a qualified L3 instructor on your staff.... 18 hour exam for L1? Again, where?
 

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