California/Nevada Understanding Tahoe Travel Restrictions

[raytseng]

An order for Sacramento Region is anticipated to occur sooner or later ?.
May screw up Christmas holidays ? ?
TBD or as they say YMMV

The etas for the 15% mark they extrapolated out and predict sometime in next week withonly bay area region maybe a week or 2 after that. Its still a pure metric, so if by statistical error nobody fills the actual beds then it won't trigger (and assuming we don't pull a utah and hide the sick just to fudge the numbers and stay open).

As far as any Orders "screwing up xmas plans", the flipside is yes maybe it screws up covid19's xmas "plans" and save a bunch of us from getting unwanted xmas "gifts".

 

[Unpiste]

This is a crisis, the outdoors is open for you to get sun and air and your physical health, but not for you to have "fun". So get your physical exercise and UV allotment, then go back home.

I don't think that's quite the right way to look at it. The outdoors is open for fun and for people's mental health just as much as their physical health, but as with anything, only to the extent that it's reasonably safe.

 

[John Webb]

I think the issue for those of us in the Bay Area is not the lack of orders in Tahoe, it’s the orders here barring all non-essential travel out of our counties.

Yes. It seems like a big conflict that you must stay home. But then it is all right (Maybe not from certain bay area counties) to go long distances to ski.

 

[Unpiste]

Yes. It seems like a big conflict that you must stay home. But then it is all right to go long distances to ski.

If I'm up on the local orders here, there's a 14 day quarantine required for trips over 150 miles. It is a bit interesting since Kirkwood is about 140 miles away, but Squaw/Alpine is ~160.

The hardest thing for me is that it seems like there's a new order every few weeks, and the FAQs and summaries are never really enough to understand the details. At some point it's easier to just try to follow the spirit than the precise letter of the orders. I figure that if I travel, but don't use any indoor facilities shared by anyone coming from a different location, it's probably fine, but so far I've been staying local considering snow conditions and strained hospitals.

 

[John Webb]

The etas for the 15% mark they extrapolated out and predict sometime in next week with only bay area region maybe a week or 2 after that. Its still a pure metric, so if by statistical error nobody fills the actual beds then it won't trigger (and assuming we don't pull a utah and hide the sick just to fudge the numbers and stay open).

It's possible that as the Bay Area region and Sacramento area region keep adding ICU beds the moving target of 15% may not be reached.
Let's hope. They certainly have resources to do this. Stanford, UCSF, and Sleep Train Arena getting ready.

A bigger problem may be staffing (Nurses & doctors) for the added ICU beds may not be available.
Has just happened in Yuba county.

 

[SSSdave]

The 150 mile travel limit in Santa Clara County was obviously specifically set up to prevent people from driving to Tahoe. Note from San Jose to Kirkwood is 180 miles and Heavenly is 210 miles. That includes both skiers and gamblers since casinos have remained open. Would expect gamblers have a much higher virus rate than outdoor snow enthusiasts if one leaves out those coming from urban Nevada that tend to be more resistant on average. IMO it is misplaced because the SF Bay Area skiing demographic that provides the majority of Tahoe ski resort visitors is not among those that have been causing the surge. However for political correctness reasons by using a broad swath, it was an easy scapegoat versus pointing at airline travelers, gamblers, young adults, or ethnic groups. The Santa Clara County policy ought allow season pass holders to go beyond the 150 mile limit for day trips if they do not plan to stay overnight as their rate would be ultra low while providing great mental health relief from months of lock down and restrictions. In any case given the droughty lack of snow, apparently won't matter for the 3 weeks it is supposed to last but given the likelihood the virus rates will still be rising, expect they will extend it.

 

[snwbrdr]

Big Bear IS Now Subject to Governor's just issued "Stay Home" order for the Southern California region.

Lodging and travel restrictions as posted by City of Big Bear need clarification.
Taken from the now out of date #119 are:

• traditional hotels and lodging facilities may only operate if housing essential workers,
• vacation rentals may be occupied, but only by members of the same immediate household,
• second homes may be occupied, but only by members of the same immediate household,
• any visitors originating from outside California, and not traveling for essential business purposes, must quarantine for 14 days,
• California residents are advised to limit travel within the State, and within 2 - 3 hours of home, and only with your immediate household.

If the above is correct ? similar rules may apply to Mammoth Lakes.
(Big Bear & Mammoth ski areas will, as "allowed recreation activity" , continue operating)

#120 update(that came out at Noon today) says Stay at Home order starts Monday. Update #120 - COVID-19 Event - City of Big Bear Lake (constantcontact.com)

That's why I provided CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19) (citybigbearlake.com) link to check for latest updates.

 

[raytseng]

yea the issue on nurses etc was what I was trying to allude to in my prior post about resorts will produce skiing injuries and infrastructure demands.
I used example of busting a knee but there are more severe trauma based injuries that will need urgent care and a percentage of those will need icu beds, but even the more normal mundane resources are strained like imaging nursing and even down the chain to janitorial/ppe type resources needed to give you care for your busted knee incident
The travel I also view also about reducing infrastructure needs as well, and you are safer at home than on the road even if the accident stats is on the order of accidents per million driver miles and hard to imagine.
But you can just look at any storm and there are nonzero cars spun out on 80 and 50 during a storm as an analogy. Everyone shouldve made the trip without trouble, and were even individually checked for chains, but there are always multiple people who crash or gets in trouble

 

[Unpiste]

The 150 mile travel limit in Santa Clara County was obviously specifically set up to prevent people from driving to Tahoe. Note from San Jose to Kirkwood is 180 miles and Heavenly is 210 miles.

Those are driving distances. The actual distances are closer.

 

[snwbrdr]

Since I'll be at South Lake Tahoe in 2 weeks... I called my lodging this morning, and they said still outdoor/take-out dining and curfew. But things may change quickly.

Know Before You Go | Tahoe South

 

[raytseng]

Since I'll be at South Lake Tahoe in 2 weeks... I called my lodging this morning, and they said still outdoor/take-out dining and curfew. But things may change quickly.

Yes, recall the march shutdown came basically with 1 or 2 days notice, and the resorts shut down basically overnight.

 

[snwbrdr]

Yes, recall the march shutdown came basically with 1 or 2 days notice, and the resorts shut down basically overnight.

I was at Mammoth when that happened. It snowed overnight, and I had to drive home instead of hitting fresh powder.
IMG_20200315_073736289_HDR by thisistan, on Flickr

 

[John Webb]

The 150 mile travel limit in Santa Clara County was obviously specifically set up to prevent people from driving to Tahoe. Note from San Jose to Kirkwood is 180 miles and Heavenly is 210 miles.

Those are driving distances. The actual distances are closer.

Check Google maps . Doesn't add up !
"Actual distances" must be as the crow flies !

 

[raytseng]

If you tunnel through the curvature of the earth you may squeak a couple extra miles out of the calculation too.

 

[John Webb]

Yes, recall the march shutdown came basically with 1 or 2 days notice, and the resorts shut down basically overnight.

I remember it well. For Mammoth the advance notice was only hours ! I tried to notify the Cleveland Branch of my former ski club,
The Fagowees. They were already in bed before a early 6am plane flight. Did not get the message.

They traveled from Cleveland to Mammoth to find it closing. Net day they flew home.

 

[Unpiste]

If you tunnel through the curvature of the earth you may squeak a couple extra miles out of the calculation too.

Unless they're requiring people to quarantine for 14 days after driving 150 miles in circles around the neighborhood, the measurement is going to be "as the crow flies". (Can't say I've ever seen a crow fly 150 miles in a straight line though.)

Edit (because I'm sensing some confusion): I'm not saying traveling 140 miles is suddenly a good idea while 180 isn't, but if you're going to discuss distances on official government orders, you've got to at least start with the right measurement.

 

[Philpug]

I see three things...

• Stay at home restriction
• Limit unnecessary travel
• Suggested that you can still recreate (skiing is not the only suggested activity)

I interpreted that you recreate in your own back yard. If you live in Marin, it is Marin. If you live in Santa Clara, it is Santa Clara. If you live in Tahoe, it is Tahoe. Travel to these other areas including Tahoe falls under unnecessary travel.

 

[skibob]

If you tunnel through the curvature of the earth you may squeak a couple extra miles out of the calculation too.

Now we have found the real use of Elon Musk's Boring Company!

 

[skibob]

I see three things...

• Stay at home restriction
• Limit unnecessary travel
• Suggested that you can still recreate (skiing is not the only suggested activity)

I interpreted that you recreate in your own back yard. If you live in Marin, that is Marin. If you live in Santa Clara, it is Santa Clara. If you live in Tahoe, it is Tahoe. Travel to these other areas including Tahoe falls under unnecessary travel.

Ah, now, you're just trying to keep the whole cake for yourself!

 

[Unpiste]

I think part of the problem is that the way the California order is written (for instance, implementing a curfew, but failing, even in the FAQ, to actually explain why) begs for interpretation, and once you start interpreting, "travel" becomes a little more vague. In this case, any time "travel" is discussed, the implication seems to be that you're staying for an extended period, or that you'll be spending time indoors with other people. None of those are necessarily true for skiing, so especially when it's been called out as an activity that's okay, I think a bit of confusion is understandable.

The explanation that I've heard for the curfew, by the way, (from an official source discussing the order on the radio) is that it worked in some European countries, so they've decided to do the same here without really worrying about why it works. I don't think that's unreasonable, but I wish they were willing to admit that in the FAQ and that they called out solitary activities (such as a late night walk to avoid crowds) as allowed. When you have simple, local activities that are obviously fine by any health standard yet disallowed by a health order, it seems inevitable that people are going to start trying to figure out what you actually mean.