Unicorn Search: mid-sized 4WD/AWD New England vehicle with decent gas mileage

[nay]

These are all things we are keeping in mind as our Subie's mileage creeps up, 167k+ right now. We are starting to keep a running thread of various makes/models as possibilities.

If I didn't have to buy new now, I would suggest not. I would be looking used and be very open to finding the best example and maybe willing to travel. Granted you might have to give up some technologies like park assist and Apple Play but you are still going to get a ton of reliablity. I woul aslo look to the brands and models that might not be as popular and in demand ie Infiniti, Nissan, Mitsubishi and even Acura. I'd also look at sites liek Cars and Bids or Bring a Trailer where there is a level of vetting of the cars/trucks listed.

The problem with giving up things like Apple Play is that it is really expensive to get it back, because these 2010’s cars and trucks have a lot of functionality built into the OEM head unit. You are walking in the door at $750 for the head unit + Maestro Datalink and that’s if you can install it yourself. I just did on my 2008 Sequoia and that’s probably $500 at an audio shop.

As someone who made a living buying extraordinary values in old Toyotas, that is gone. My son’s girlfriend just acquired a very nice condition 2009 Rav4 for $11K with a 157,000 miles. That was a nice enough score right now, but is a horrendous value historically.

Personally, I would see where any OEM is still offering decent financing rates if that still exists and pay MSRP. We all have this idea of negotiating good deals with dealers, young kids today won’t even understand what that meant. We’re all holding our noses and walking out the door, but that’s just because we are old and stubborn now.

There is no worse value than a high priced used car.

 

[Philpug]

The problem with giving up things like Apple Play is that it is really expensive to get it back, because these 2010’s cars and trucks have a lot of functionality built into the OEM head unit. You are walking in the door at $750 for the head unit + Maestro Datalink and that’s if you can install it yourself. I just did on my 2008 Sequoia and that’s probably $500 at an audio shop.

Everyone has their "must haves". In all of my recent Miatas I just went with a Bluetooth FM transmitter and for under $20, other than having a large screen, I was able to use much of the function of my iPhone.

 

[Ken_R]

i don’t know that this is true. I think it was Ford CEO who was recently talking about how they had learned in COVID that over producing just left the manufacturers offering huge discounts/rebates to move inventory and they they didn’t intend to move back to a model where there is a lot of inventory on a lot. The world will be mostly build to order.

In particular because of Tesla and its market value with complete vertical supply chain integration, we will continue to see the OEMs try to shift the dealer to supporting your subscription to the OEM. Elon responded to something 6 or 8 months ago to a guy who had built up a 40K personal computer by saying “I’ll sell you a better computer for that price and it comes with a car.” That’s the right way to think about it.

I’d personally just get the car you want and buy the longest possible warranty you can get. It’s will likely be the last time you do that and $50/mo here or there doesn’t even show up in a ski budget.

Very True.

Manufacturers do need to sell a good volume of vehicles though to maximize profits since increasing msrp in this market is a very bad thing. They did make increases in msrp across the board but now with interest rates much higher they have priced out a lot of their vehicles from prospective buyers. Time for 0% financing manufacturer deals?

 

[nay]

Very True.

Manufacturers do need to sell a good volume of vehicles though to maximize profits since increasing msrp in this market is a very bad thing. They did make increases in msrp across the board but now with interest rates much higher they have priced out a lot of their vehicles from prospective buyers. Time for 0% financing manufacturer deals?

There is nothing historically high about 6% rates.

The thing is this: we have had artificially cheap money for 14 years due to the 2008 financial crisis and then COVID. To put that in perspective, the iPhone was released in 2007.

This is the length of a generation where the cost of things has been artificially cheap. I read a good article a few months ago entitled “The End of the Millennial Convenience Lifestyle.”

The point of this was an outcome of COVID and the end of Quantitative Easing (printing money) means that we are all going to start paying what things actually cost. That’s not really “inflation”, which is why interest rates will continue to be largely destructive to the wrong things.

A long Uber ride, for example, doesn’t really cost $22. It costs $50. Nobody is going to keep subsiding the difference now in a perpetual cash flow drain. That’s why companies like Carvana are zombies - their business model was always a solution looking for a problem at a huge price premium.

There is no way car manufacturers are going back to the old way, they know people need cars and they don’t need to keep throwing away profit so you can buy on demand on any given Saturday.

Your SUV doesn’t even have any status now unless it costs over $100K and that segment is getting loaded with models.

Finally getting CarPlay into my 2008 Sequoia (only one year younger than the iPhone) has made it completely current for me. As @Philpug noted above, YMMV.

 

[johnnyvw]

Things will change...they always do. When the supply of cars becomes plentiful again, they wil be offering incentives. Low interest rates can be more attractive than a discounted price if youre only puttig $1000 down.

 

[Tom K.]

And who needs park assist, anyway? That's a basic Driving 101 skill: parallel parking.

+1 -- our new Transit has this feature. It will still be brand spanking new when the next owner takes possession some day.

The likelihood of me letting a $50k vehicle "robot park" itself is zero. I know that probably dates me, but there you go.

There is no way car manufacturers are going back to the old way, they know people need cars and they don’t need to keep throwing away profit so you can buy on demand on any given Saturday.

IMO this will be true, but only until the first manufacturer blinks and says "let's ramp up the volume, just for a little while". Then all will follow suit. They won't be able to resist.

 

[tch]

"A 2009 Rav4 for $11K with a 157,000 miles." Whaaaaa????
That's crazy! I admit I've been out of the car market for about three years now, but REALLY??? If that is truly the state of things, I'll be looking for a new vehicle only when my car is absolutely dead and gone beyond repair of any kind.

 

[dovski]

i don’t know that this is true. I think it was Ford CEO who was recently talking about how they had learned in COVID that over producing just left the manufacturers offering huge discounts/rebates to move inventory and they they didn’t intend to move back to a model where there is a lot of inventory on a lot. The world will be mostly build to order.

In particular because of Tesla and its market value with complete vertical supply chain integration, we will continue to see the OEMs try to shift the dealer to supporting your subscription to the OEM. Elon responded to something 6 or 8 months ago to a guy who had built up a 40K personal computer by saying “I’ll sell you a better computer for that price and it comes with a car.” That’s the right way to think about it.

I’d personally just get the car you want and buy the longest possible warranty you can get. It’s will likely be the last time you do that and $50/mo here or there doesn’t even show up in a ski budget.

I agree that the traditional dealership is an archaic dinosaur that is way past its best before date. That said moving to an on demand production model is easier said than done. Even Tesla ends up with inventory models when customers cancel or reject their deliveries (that is how I got a discount on my last Tesla). Currently as the supply chain gets back to normal, the inventory shortages and market conditions that created the appearance of an on demand model have evaporated. Most dealerships are now dealing with many canceled orders and manufacturers are already bracing for unsold inventory which is why discounts and incentives are back. As interest rates rise you will even see promotional financing make a comeback. The reality is that most consumer are not ready for the on demand model where the commit to buy a big ticket item site unseen. Don't get me wrong I love the Tesla model, but the dealerships and the mainstream consumers are light years away from adopting it and that just supports the status quo.

The other issue is the assembly line in most auto plants is not designed for on demand production, it is designed for scale. The cost and time it takes to stop and restart the assembly line is huge. This is where Tesla is way different than every other manufacturer out there, they have simplified and automated the assembly line, the best example being the Giga Press. So as much as Ford may want to have an on demand model they are likely decades and billions of dollars away from having the factory setup do this. In other words for most car companies the status quo is going to be the norm for quite some time.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Fun little trivia nugget here: a friend of mine showed me the odometer on his AWD Toyota Sienna minivan (he is a recumbent bicycle racer so the van has no seats other than the pilot and navigator chairs): 302,404

Thing is rock solid and he anticipates getting another 100K on it before possible replacement.

And my 1996 Legacy cleared 200K without much fuss, save for the transmission/clutch issue which was completely my own fault for being a naïve youngster when I bought it. As I said upthread, it would likely still be in use if not for the preventable failure.

 

[scott43]

If you're willing to invest in maintenance today's vehicles will go a long way. Mostly people just get sick of driving smelly old cars...

 

[cantunamunch]

+1 -- our new Transit has this feature. It will still be brand spanking new when the next owner takes possession some day.

The likelihood of me letting a $50k vehicle "robot park" itself is zero. I know that probably dates me, but there you go.

Just being able to read a round clock dates you

 

[Rudi Riet]

Mostly people just get sick of driving smelly old cars...

They only get smelly if you let them - again with the preventive maintenance stuff. An occasional interior detailing works wonders.

 

[Rudi Riet]

The problem with giving up things like Apple Play is that it is really expensive to get it back, because these 2010’s cars and trucks have a lot of functionality built into the OEM head unit. You are walking in the door at $750 for the head unit + Maestro Datalink and that’s if you can install it yourself. I just did on my 2008 Sequoia and that’s probably $500 at an audio shop.

Crutchfield (and their amazingly intuitive and "explained-in-English-not-engineer" installation guides) for the win, eh?

 

[cantunamunch]

They only get smelly if you let them - again with the preventive maintenance stuff. An occasional interior detailing works wonders.

Crutchfield (and their amazingly intuitive and "explained-in-English-not-engineer" installation guides) for the win, eh?

And you wonder why marketers insist that old farts like us "aren't profitable".

Honestly, my biggest turnoff is cabin temperature setpoints. Relative sliders and consistent, controllable circulation for me any day.

 

[Tom K.]

Fun little trivia nugget here: a friend of mine showed me the odometer on his AWD Toyota Sienna minivan (he is a recumbent bicycle racer so the van has no seats other than the pilot and navigator chairs): 302,404

I have a friend that drives a LOT and he donates his Sienna minivan of the moment whenever it hits 300k. Never a significant problem.

Makes me hopeful for ours at 120k.

Honestly, my biggest turnoff is cabin temperature setpoints. Relative sliders and consistent, controllable circulation for me any day.

Agree. My wife's (now aging) Honda Element has the best climate control system in the world. Three big, round dials with excellent haptic feedback. I'd take it over the fanciness of "climate control" any day.

 

[scott43]

And you wonder why marketers insist that old farts like us "aren't profitable".

Honestly, my biggest turnoff is cabin temperature setpoints. Relative sliders and consistent, controllable circulation for me any day.

Pet peeve: the Outback temp goes from too hot to too cold in three detents out of like 40...

 

[Philpug]

Having owned about 15 Subarus and sold well over 1,000 we forget the head gasket issues and the shortcomings of the 4EAT transmission. I never felt that Subarus (overall) had the same level of reliablity as some of the other Asian brands. Other than in the WRX Imprezas, Subaru's manual transmissions have had some of the worst feeling on the market.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Having owned about 15 Subaris and sold well over 1,000 we forget the head gasket issues and the shortcomings of the 4EAT transmission. I never felt that Subarus (overall) had the same level of reliablity as some of the other Asian brands. Other than in the WRX Imprezas, Subaru's manual transmissions have had some of the worst feeling on the market.

The reworking on the head gasket with the 2017 move to the Global Platform has largely solved that issue. Can't speak to ATs and CVTs, but part of the attraction of the Crosstrek is that the 6MT is the same one used in the WRX. The Impreza gets the older 5MT which is a bit more... spongy.

 

[Philpug]

The reworking on the head gasket with the 2017 move to the Global Platform has largely solved that issue.

Yes but over 20 years of bad motors cannot be ignored.

Can't speak to ATs and CVTs, but part of the attraction of the Crosstrek is that the 6MT is the same one used in the WRX. The Impreza gets the older 5MT which is a bit more... spongy.

Or as one magazine wrote, a wooden dowel in Playdoe.

 

[cantunamunch]

Having owned about 15 Subaris and sold well over 1,000 we forget the head gasket issues and the shortcomings of the 4EAT transmission. I never felt that Subarus (overall) had the same level of reliablity as some of the other Asian brands.

If it's an upgrade from GM J-body and N-body gasket and tranny issues, I'll take it to 200K any day

#lowexpectationsarethekeytosuccess