Unicorn Search: mid-sized 4WD/AWD New England vehicle with decent gas mileage

[tball]

If the 2023 Toyota 4Runner finally gets a mpg upgrade, I would love to consider that...

The next-generation 4Runner will undoubtedly get an mpg upgrade, but I wouldn't get hopes up on it being anywhere near a Highlander.

My informed speculation based on the new Tundra announced Sunday is the focus of the 4Runner hybrid will be more on power than mpg. The 4Runner and Tundra (and other body on frame Toyotas) will all be built on the TNGA-F global platform and are engineered by the same team, so it's reasonable to expect the 4Runner will have a similar design.

The new Tundra hybrid is an entirely different design than existing Toyota hybrids. It's a single motor-generator sandwiched between the engine and transmission. The primary purpose of the motor is to add torque. Increased efficiency is a nice additional benefit, but the design precludes it from approaching the efficiency of the Highlander hybrid system.

 

[Ogg]

One thing I don't like about VW is you can't "pick from the menu" very much. S, SE, SEL and that's pretty much it. If you want some of the fancies in the SEL but the MT from the S, no dice. If you want the S but desire a sunroof, no dice. We have a 2014 Passat TDi SE and like it but, given the choice, wouldn't have got the sunroof. It cuts into head room and, as mentioned by @johnnyvw, can leak. On the other hand, it still gets 45+ highway after "the fix". Can't complain about that! And I can get 3 people in to go skiing.

This is the case with most new cars. There may be one big and relatively expensive option package at each trim level but that's usually it. Even with the vehicles that have more options they usually come bundled in certain configurations from the factory regardless of what you can build on their website.

 

[Andy Mink]

This is the case with most new cars. There may be one big and relatively expensive option package at each trim level but that's usually it. Even with the vehicles that have more options they usually come bundled in certain configurations from the factory regardless of what you can build on their website.

You'd think with computer driven robots you could very easily build whatever the customer wants.

 

[Ogg]

You'd think with computer driven robots you could very easily build whatever the customer wants.

They could but that would cost more. For the maybe 5% of buyers that have specific preferences it's probably not worth the effort. OTOH I would no be surprised if some car company did go back to the "have it your way" model in the near future.

 

[lisamamot]

the focus of the 4Runner hybrid will be more on power than mpg

Wait, a hybrid?! Be still my heart….

I was just hoping for a reasonable overhaul since it hasn’t been updated in a decade!

 

[lisamamot]

Typical drive from ME to MA in the Highlander. With the Thule I reduce cargo needs, and hopefully can downsize a bit, but there are limits - look at those faces!

 

[tball]

Wait, a hybrid?! Be still my heart….

I was just hoping for a reasonable overhaul since it hasn’t been updated in nearly a decade!

Yes! The new 4Runner should be all-new from the ground up, and Toyota has said every vehicle will have an electrified option by 2025.

The 4Runner will likely have two engines, a turbo four-cylinder, plus that same engine with a hybrid system tacked on for extra power and economy (in the city, at least).

Here's the Chief Engineer over the Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner, and Tacoma talking about the new hybrid system in the Tundra:



Given the similar missions of all four of those vehicles, it's reasonable to assume they will use the same hybrid philosophy and design in all of them. We'll see what the new 4Runnner looks like in a year or so.

 

[johnnyvw]

Typical drive from ME to MA in the Highlander. With the Thule I reduce cargo needs, and hopefully can downsize a bit, but there are limits - look at those faces!

An Alltrack will be a step back in room, a Tiguan would be nearly the same.

 

[Crank]

I am on my second Highlander. First one went 250K. I am always hauling stuff. Biking stuff, skiing stuff, music stuff, video production stuff, tools and stuff. It has a really good amount of space.

Our Subaru Forester is a bit shorter lengthwise and taller. We love it but my skis fit better in the Highlander and it is just and inch or so shorter making it much easier to strap the kayaks on top.

Way back in 2003 when I got my first one I was also looking at the Honda Pilot and have driven a friend's on a few trips as well. I think the Highlander has a smoother, more car like ride, while the Pilot felt stiffer and more truck like.

One thing to bear in mind regarding height of your next vehicle: I find driving a regular height sedan more stressful and tiring because you have less visibility and at night the headlights from all the SUVs and trucks on the road shine right into your back window.

Have rented both Hundai and Kia SUVs and liked them both for ride and space.

Also if your use is mostly road and highway - get a car that rides well and don't get something designed for off road use.

Just my 2-cents. I would definitely look at the Hybrid Highlander.

 

[Philpug]

So since I have both an Alltrack and Tiguan sitting in the driveway,

The new Tiguan? Just out of curiosity, what is the MPG difference and also the distance from the front seat (pease set back one notch from yoru regular position) to the gate?

 

[snwbrdr]

An Alltrack will be a step back in room, a Tiguan would be nearly the same.

A Tiguan would not be nearly the same as her current Highlander. It will also be a step back in width and length of the interior. The 3rd row on the Tiguan is a lot more useless than her Highlander.

VW doesn't make anything nearly the same as her current Highlander.

The Atlas Cross Sport is a longer car, even longer than the 2020+ Highlander (by about an 1"). The refreshed 2021 atlas grew 2" in bumpers to break the 200" length mark. Those extra inches in the Atlas, Ascent, and Korean twins shows itself in the 3rd row space... with the exception of the Mazda CX-9, the extra inches (199") still means it's as big as the shorter Highlander inside.

 

[nay]

Yes, I am definitely happier in the $40K range, maybe $50K for the perfect match. I don't need/want a luxury brand - no Rovers, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.

Ford Explorer is definitely one I had on my mental list, but I am concerned about reliability ratings on recent models; I had one a long time ago, then an Expedition before I moved to the mom-mobile Honday Odyssey when my twins were toddlers, and then on to the Toyota Highlander. Loved both the Fords.

I expect the Pilot/MDX/Atlas/Santa Fe are very much like my Highlander. If I stay with this platform, and disappoint my husband with the lack of 4WD or even full time AWD, I would likely consider some of these as well as the Mazda CX-9, and heck, another Highlander.


Fine with either. I have had Ford, Volvo, Honda, Toyota.


I have never had a hybrid, but would love to venture in that direction if I decide to stay with the same type of platform as I have now.


Need? I could make some tweaks and downsize a bit from the Highlander, but not from the mid-sized to the compact class yet. A practical sporty AWD wagon appeals to me; once I am no longer doing the back and forth from MA to ME, I expect that will be in my future.

Take a look at the Subaru Ascent in the touring edition, which will keep you under $50K and has everything including ventilated seats which you didn’t know you needed but are more important than heated seats and it has a seat extender for leg support for taller drivers. We just got 26 mpg from Denver to Vail over the two major passes, with the turbo there is no altitude power loss so it drives that stuff like a big V8 despite being a 2.5L 4 cyl engine. Had 6 people onboard, effortlessly cruising 75 mph up east Vail pass (long and steep). The adaptive cruise control with Subaru Eyesight works really well even in traffic, as a passenger you can’t tell the car is driving itself. Lane Keep Assist is still a bit ‘bounce between the lines’, but you can use it for a fully self driving car on the highway. I prefer actually driving, but it’s there and it works.

I know altitude isn’t your major concern, but a CVT transmission with a turbo platform means zero mountain pass downshifting or power issues, it just drives like a flat highway. My only critique is 20” wheels are silly despite being commonplace these days, big vehicles need a bit more rubber, although the Premium model that’s the best value (although kinda boring) has 18” wheels. And the suspension can feel a bit boaty if you want to drive it harder, although that can be upgraded.

(yes, that pic of the rear view mirror is when you flip it like a manual mirror for night driving, it turns into a rear camera so you can still see back when fully loaded inside)

 

[Andy Mink]

Take a look at the Subaru Ascent in the touring edition, which will keep you under $50K and has everything including ventilated seats which you didn’t know you needed but are more important than heated seats and it has a seat extender for leg support for taller drivers. We just got 26 mpg from Denver to Vail over the two major passes, with the turbo there is no altitude power loss so it drives that stuff like a big V8 despite being a 2.5L 4 cyl engine. Had 6 people onboard, effortlessly cruising 75 mph up east Vail pass (long and steep). The adaptive cruise control with Subaru Eyesight works really well even in traffic, as a passenger you can’t tell the car is driving itself. Lane Keep Assist is still a bit ‘bounce between the lines’, but you can use it for a fully self driving car on the highway. I prefer actually driving, but it’s there and it works.

I know altitude isn’t your major concern, but a CVT transmission with a turbo platform means zero mountain pass downshifting or power issues, it just drives like a flat highway. My only critique is 20” wheels are silly despite being commonplace these days, big vehicles need a bit more rubber, although the Premium model that’s the best value (although kinda boring) has 18” wheels. And the suspension can feel a bit boaty if you want to drive it harder, although that can be upgraded.

(yes, that pic of the rear view mirror is when you flip it like a manual mirror for night driving, it turns into a rear camera so you can still see back when fully loaded inside)

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And it has 19 cup holders! This according to Subaru.

 

[weatherman]

Take a look at the Subaru Ascent

I'll warn you that the Ascent has horrific reliability in the Consumer Reports data. It's rated #9 of 14 in its class as a result. And yes, 19 cupholders!

 

[nay]

Oh and those ivory accent pieces have backlighting at night in the front and middle rows, it’s like being in a luxury jet cabin, second row seats are heated, the roof rack crossbars are heavy duty for a cargo box and don’t make any noise, every row has USB plus middle has a 120w outlet for your laptop, front camera for parking, 750w Harmon Kardon sound (really good, not audiophile good), integrated Carplay is flawless, it has it’s own WiFi, panoramic moonroof with power retracting shade cover, integrated second row window shades, we don’t really know a bunch of the stuff because we have not RTFM yet.

Electronic assist steering is interesting, it takes some time to get used to, but the car can’t steer itself without it. Seats are stupid comfortable, the interior materials are soft and luxury without being overboard and violating Subaru’s utilitarian design approach. Is this a perfect ski rig in touring trim at this price point? It might be, especially for those of us at altitude. It’s a big car, but it doesn’t really drive like it and the 3rd row is fine for long trips for smaller adults.

 

[Andy Mink]

I'll warn you that the Ascent has horrific reliability in the Consumer Reports data. It's rated #9 of 14 in its class as a result. And yes, 19 cupholders!

I don't get CR so am curious: what were the specific problems they found? Engine/drivetrain or niggling, annoying things? I'm not familiar with how CR does their reviews other than they always seem to bag on full size trucks for having rough rides. D'uh. They're full size trucks with full size suspensions!

 

[weatherman]

I don't get CR so am curious: what were the specific problems they found? Engine/drivetrain or niggling, annoying things? I'm not familiar with how CR does their reviews other than they always seem to bag on full size trucks for having rough rides. D'uh. They're full size trucks with full size suspensions!

Just pulled up the report to look at the details. Overall predicted reliability 1/5.

Below average:

• Transmission (minor and major)
• Climate system
• Suspension
• Brakes
• Body integrity
• Power equipment
• Electronics

 

[djetok]

New Bronco big enough? Not exactly elegant, but it’s kind of what the Land Rover Defender replacement wanted to be.
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What’s the box on top, and what length ski will it fit?

This is what my first thought was a Bronco sport. Of course you could always do the Ford Escape , which is what the bronco sport is built on. Then there is the bigger bronco , but the op wouldn't get the mpg they desire.

 

[nay]

And it has 19 cup holders! This according to Subaru.

It does . There are like 11 in the second row. Admittedly, though, a bunch are in the door and only handle small bottles. The LED lights in the front two center console are a fave feature.

One other thing, and again as a Toyota truck guy I can’t stand to admit this, both the Ascent and our daughter’s 2015 Forester XT (the turbo with the sport suspension) eat up washboard roads better than any truck we own and I spend a lot of money on suspensions. I wouldn’t want to beat up a car with a ton of that kind of usage, but for people who just want to get to trailheads it’s really hard to argue with how solid, quiet, and planted it drives those conditions.

I’ve towed a 1,500 lb trailer and you wouldn’t even know it’s there, the hitch is Subaru and it replaces the rear crossmember to stay hidden and relatively high up. Fuel economy goes to trash, but it tows effortlessly with a 5,000 lb rating. Subaru says that even with the turbo, the new 2.5L platform doesn’t require premium fuel. We’re using it, but you don’t have to.

You just can’t believe it’s a 4 cyl engine. At say 11K altitude, there’s no power loss due to the turbo, so it’s like having a >350 hp naturally aspirated engine and it weighs 4,600 lbs which is reasonable for the size.

The Kia Telluride wins every award in this class, and you’d pay a huge premium to get one (I’ve heard you have to agree to $20K over MSRP to even get a test drive, but they always test the Ascent in Premium trim and it’s pretty pedestrian there - I had a loaner for two days and I wouldn’t have bought it. So for me it’s Touring or bust, but that depends what you like.

 

[weatherman]

The Kia Telluride wins every award in this class, and you’d pay a huge premium to get one (I’ve heard you have to agree to $20K over MSRP to even get a test drive, but they always test the Ascent in Premium trim and it’s pretty pedestrian there - I had a loaner for two days and I wouldn’t have bought it. So for me it’s Touring or bust, but that depends what you like.

Yes, the Telluride is easily the best car in its class. Mechanically the Palisade is a close cousin and much easier to find. It's worth considering.

When I moved from New England to Colorado, my desires in the vehicle changed dramatically. Altitude fade isn't an issue there. I got a plug-in hybrid in my latest purchase here because the electric motors get even more efficient at altitude due to reduced drag. In New England, AWD is sufficient for all the driving you'll ever do. But here in the mountains of Colorado, a real 4x4 with low-range is a must-have. I spend probably 1/3 of my driving time in summer off the pavement. You have to off-road for miles to just about every trailhead or mountain lake. On-road performance was really the focus in New England. This is largely a person circumstance difference, but there I was often driving hours to ski and commuting through traffic. The automatic steering and adaptive cruise control was a life changer in traffic and long drives. Here there is practically zero traffic and I'm minutes from the mountain. Completely different priority set.