Upper body armor for slalom racing: Dainese or POC gear?

[breck]

...


Did anyone else just have a picture of a bearded, sunglassed telemarker swooping out of the woods...in full on hockey/moto gear?

Sorry @breck , that's just the image I'm getting.

No beard but not far off of where I am heading. I do tend to wear sunglasses instead of goggles--I am a fogging goggles machine.
If you are lucky I will be wearing my Royal Mail shell, literally a surplus gortex shell that the UK Royal Mail carriers wore--first one was was $15 or something.

 

[breck]

Breck, for slalom most of us want the maximum freedom of movement and mobility as possible. While wear a spine/back protector for speed and sometimes for GS, for slalom only want the padding in places where i can get gate hits. In fact for slalom I usually wear a suit that has had a bit of use since they stretch slightly after several uses.

Fair enough, there is always next year. Still will need the armor for mountain biking and free skiing.

thanks all for the feedback.

 

[slow-line-fast]

. I do tend to wear sunglasses instead of goggles--I am a fogging goggles machine.

Safer to wear goggles, not sunglasses, in gates. - so I have been told and believe, better eye protection

 

[DocGKR]

"Safer to wear goggles, not sunglasses, in gates."

Without doubt--glasses will not hold-up well.

 

[BLiP]

I’ve certainly been smacked in the goggles by a gate before. It shouldn’t happen with a chin guard, but who knows.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Unless those glasses are ASTM safety certified, wear goggles.

Honestly, for basic safety's sake: goggles.

 

[DocGKR]

While I have a face bar for SL, I have occasionally been hit in a face by GS and PGS gates....definitely want goggles....

 

[breck]

I definitely wear goggles in gates and a chin guard--thanks for the concern and apologies for being unclear. Less of a goggle wearer when free skiing.

 

[breck]

Update on my armor purchase

Would love to hear you evaluation of final protective gear choice,

I have around 10 days skiing the gear and doing fairly serious slalom training. There is my initial review in this thread at:

Upper body armor for slalom racing: Dainese or POC gear?

'Spect! Probably twice as fast as me, if I could even get up the courage. That's a lot of torque on your lower spine. Thanks and depending on your accumulated injuries telemark is very easy on your body--I don't notice any torque on my spine or really anywhere else. Tele is much gentler than...

www.skitalk.com

The gear being reviewed is:

Hip/butt armor

Hip VPD 2.0 Shorts

The Hip VPD 2.0 Shorts offer great freedom of movement and provide a high level of protection for your tailbone and hips. VPD adapts to the shape of your body, but when exposed to impact, the material stiffens and has extreme impact absorption properties. Product Highlights Perforated 3ply VPD...

na.pocsports.com

and

Upper body armor, spine, shoulders, elbows and chest

Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket

The Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket gives full back, chest, shoulder and elbow protection with great flexibility and freedom of movement. Product Highlights Complete upper body protection Exceptional impact absorption Height adjustable waistband Product Description The Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket gives full back...

na.pocsports.com

Ok, so 10 or so sessions in and I'll say:

• I am very satisfied with the quality, and likely performance in a crash, but a serious crash remains untested.
• This gear is heavy, I don't feel it on my body skiing but it has to be having an impact. The Upper is 2 kilos (4.4 lbs), hip pads are .5 kilos (1.2 lbs). I saw an ??Atomic?? back protector that was much more lightly built but same basic foam idea but hollowed out considerably which made it light but probably way less effective.
• The gear is an inner layer and it gets sweaty.
• I don't think the hip pads are well placed for my greatest concern there which is breaking my hip. The bony part is not at the center of the pad. Might be the fit, I will likely fix it with some sewing/gathering cloth in the front to shift the pad.
• I really want all the pads to be removable so I can wash the stuff. It is getting stinky. I am thinking of adding zippers or just slitting the cloth. You can hand wash but the funk remains and I don't want to start doing stuff like adding vinegar to the soup around the pads in a hand wash.
• My existing ski outers/jacket/pants are barely fitting the armor underneath. But it is working.
• I wear the armor from house to the hill--it is way too much hassle to schlep the upper separately--voluminous floppy mess.
• The only time I have felt constricted is getting up from a fall. Just seems harder but that also could be exhaustion, getting old etc.... I generally ski with very separated upper/lower body + tele foolishness and that does not seem to be impacted.

What I am thinking now

• This seems like good gear but I'd really like to lighten it up. I am going to check out some other options given the chance with plastic or composite panels. If hard panels fit properly then I'd think that was more protective and lighter but the fit is going to be a challenge. Dianese has a store in Manhattan so perhaps I'll go check it out.
• I really don't think about the armor when skiing. It is way more of a hassle in the skiata (see profile pic) because the chest plate wants to push up and the spine protector rides up.
• The general concept of armor makes tons of sense, particularly on the race course and free skiing at least on the east coast where crowds are large and skills/control pretty random. Had someone hit at Hunter from my recent Lisa Ballard race camp (excellent by the way).

Happy to answer questions/clarify.

Breck

 

[breck]

Update on armor after a good solid whack.

The test dummy: I was feeling good, the snow was awesome (firm, edgeable), interesting slalom course that I was quite enjoying running.

The pattern: Hairpins/flushes are my nemesis, they are the only feature that I crash on and I tend to crash hard from a caught tip. Broke bindings/helmet 3 years ago, race crash that cost me 3rd place (in a field of more than 3!.. I race alpine masters with tele gear). Feel free to opine on what the heck is wrong with me. Always land on my left.

What was different this time?: This time I was prepared with the above body armor combo so I thought I'd share.

The test: I did my usual left-side smack at the top/middle of a flush and hit hard enough that I did the wiggle toes/fingers while working towards the center to verify things still worked and were connected. I recall my elbow and shoulder taking a hit, but my ribs were damaged for sure. I did another short run to see if everything still worked but it was clear I had a problem with my ribs--manageable pain but getting worse. I decided to head to urgent care b/c my ribs were clicking sometimes which didn't seem good. I didn't get an x-ray since treatment would be the same if broken and since I passed the barrel test (sternum/spine squeeze, armpit/armpit squeeze) it seems unlikely bones were broken.

What did the armor do?: I don't have video but I do recall shoulder/elbow contact and the energy was sufficient to foul up my ribs lower pec upwards on the left focused around mid-rib cage/left extreme side wrapped a bit front/back. I would guess that my arm took the hit and transferred it to my ribcage. The elbow and shoulder pads worked perfectly--maybe hip pads too but don't recall.

So I guess a win--I don't see how the pads could have made the crash worse, they may have prevented shoulder or elbow injury which was my primary concern as I checked myself laying in the snow.

 

[tovodeverett]

Ok, this is embarrassing but here you go. Slow, loopy, ..


But there is plenty of time to switch leads given how slow I am. But fun and very difficult for me.

OK, now I suddenly feel the need to post one of me telemarking though SL gates. Unfortunately, you'll have to seek through a bunch of fixed-heelers. I'm at 11:44 and then again at 25:48. BTW, the guy at 13:06 has a very entertaining run!


I'm running TX Pros with heat molded foot beds, Meidjo 2.1 bindings, and an old pair of Fischer RC4 FIS SL boards. Last year the coaches decided that while I probably wasn't going to be able to cross block properly in a tele turn, I should try the old gate clearing approach of using the inner forearm, combined with GS forearm guards. The first time I tried it I didn't have guards - I ended up with wicked forearm bruises, but I was having so much fun I couldn't stop.

In addition to the SL boards, I have a pair of Nordica Spitfire RB 80 (also with Meidjo bindings), and then my lighter boards are Bent Chetler 100. The Nordica Spitfires are wicked fun, especially after the fresh snow tracks out and I want something more fun for the groomers, punching through debris piles, etc.

The masters coaches convinced me to spend more time paralleling on my tele skis last year, and it turns out I'm actually not bad in an alpine turn, despite having been 100% tele for the past 30+ years. I think some of it is that learning to carve and balance on tele skis taught me a lot of balance and knowing exactly where I am front/aft on the skis, and that carries over into a parallel turn (especially in tele bindings, where riding super-centered is key - forward pressure can be dangerous when the heels lift). What surprised me was discovering that when I practiced carving aggressively in an alpine turn, it actually improved my telemark carving. I had a lot of fun switching back and forth within a run, on different terrain, etc.

So I decided to open myself up more to alpine. At the end of last season, I grabbed a pair of used SL boards from a Mighty Mites coach, and I'll pick up a pair of race alpine boots this fall. I figure I'll go 50/50 - switch around days or weekends, practice both, and for racing I'll decide based on whether there's anyone else in my class that day!

 

[breck]

OK, now I suddenly feel the need to post one of me telemarking though SL gates. Unfortunately, you'll have to seek through a bunch of fixed-heelers.

Good on you! Turns look quick enough, nice.

Last year the coaches decided that while I probably wasn't going to be able to cross block properly in a tele turn,

Fire your coaches! But seriously I cross block just fine. You can do it. My/your/our challenges are elsewhere.

When interacting with Alpine coaches I tell them to coach me just like alpine and pay attention to the downhill ski. Body/hands/downhill ski are close enough to alpine that it is a solid feedback loop. Hips get a bit funky.

The masters coaches convinced me to spend more time paralleling on my tele skis last year, and it turns out I'm actually not bad in an alpine turn, despite having been 100% tele for the past 30+ years. I think some of it is that learning to carve and balance on tele skis taught me a lot of balance and knowing exactly where I am front/aft on the skis, and that carries over into a parallel turn (especially in tele bindings, where riding super-centered is key - forward pressure can be dangerous when the heels lift). What surprised me was discovering that when I practiced carving aggressively in an alpine turn, it actually improved my telemark carving. I had a lot of fun switching back and forth within a run, on different terrain, etc.

I do the same. Whatever the drill, and we drill a lot, I start with the Alpine/parallel version on tele gear. For example, I always start railroad tracks alpine, feel like I am solid in the non-tele version and then start dropping a knee where it gets 3x as hard.

So I decided to open myself up more to alpine. At the end of last season, I grabbed a pair of used SL boards from a Mighty Mites coach, and I'll pick up a pair of race alpine boots this fall. I figure I'll go 50/50 - switch around days or weekends, practice both, and for racing I'll decide based on whether there's anyone else in my class that day!

I am thinking along similar lines. I am going to call some shops and beg for a cheap setup. $1500?

 

[breck]

So I went and got the other upper body armor I was considering,

RHYOLITE 2 Men's Protective Ski Jacket - Sport & Ski | Dainese.com

RHYOLITE 2 men's ski jacket: protection, ergonomics, comfort and technology. Shop now on the official store at Dainese.com

www.dainese.com

The POC that I used last year,

Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket

The Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket gives full back, chest, shoulder and elbow protection with great flexibility and freedom of movement. Product Highlights Complete upper body protection Exceptional impact absorption Height adjustable waistband Product Description The Spine VPD 2.0 Jacket gives full back...

na.pocsports.com

was fine but heavy, uncomfortable to drive in and I was curious if there was a better experience available.

I have done some minimal unicycle riding in it and these are my initial reactions.

• It is a nice/sexy bit of gear. Italian's do a nice job of this stuff--the Dianese is an Alfa GTV 2.0, the POC a Volvo 240. Which would I rather be in a crash in? Which would I rather walk into the lodge wearing? Choices, choices.
• Fit is small, I am in an XL and would consider XXL. My POC is a L. I am 6' 2", 210 lbs.
• I ordered it through the Dainese store in New York City which was fun since it is a motorcycle gear shop with very nice staff and several pretty Ducattis etc. on display and all that fancy motorcycle gear. It was a special order. I wanted to be able to return without mailing as well and guess what, I rejected the L and got an XL. Bricks and mortar retail has its advantages.

More details:

• The Dainese is much more comfortable to wear and overall feels like a lighter weight bit of kit. It comes in at 1 kilo, 2.2 lbs on my approximate kitchen scale. The POC is 2 kilos.
• The back and front protection is much higher on my torso than the POC. I would say it is an anti-girdle in that my belly gets rather pronounced emphases given where the front protection stops--more of a mini-keg than a 6-pack if you get my drift. A good bit of my lower spine is unprotected which I don't like at all.
• The lingere quality of the construction is even more minimal that the POC. Spandex with speed holes I guess.

Surprises:

• The back protection is much thicker and has similar foam to the POC. It also is all cut up into * shapes that make it very comfortable and it wraps to the body well.
• There is some upper torso side protection, POC has none. Zipper is front so sternum is not protected at all. The front protection is much thinner foam that of the POC.
• Shoulder and elbow pads flex really well and don't feel substantial but upon examination I think they are about the equal of the POCs. It is a grid of soft plastic that is quite stiff in compression so it may hold up well.

If there is interest I'll post pix and more details.