Vail Resorts to acquire Seven Springs, Laurel Mountain, and Hidden Valley resorts in Pennsylvania for '22-'23 season

[Laurel Hill Crazie]

One nice thing to come out of this sale is skiing will no longer be tied to MLB in this town because, to quote me from years back, MLB sucks, and so does their business model. Now we can focus on how Vail sucks and complain about that business model. Say what you want about Bob Nutting. He opened Laurel Mountain. PA would not have spent the money if a proven ski resort operator did not agree to operate the resort. I have about as much hope that Laurel will survive as I do that the Pirates will make it to the playoffs. No, I think the Pirates have a better chance because at least Nutting will field a team.

 

[Wendy]

This year is exactly why Vail purchased a Mid-Atlantic resort west of the Allegheny Front—no chance of Whitetail, Liberty, or Roundtop opening by Christmas. 7S gives these Epic Pass people a place to go when mother nature is not cooperating east of the front. Also, owning so many resorts in a single state simplifies regulatory issues, HR matters, and lobbying at the state level. I see very little chance of VR ever buying Timberline but you never know. As these east of the front resorts become less and less viable, they may need another west of the front resort to keep selling passes. We’ll see.

Another reason why I’m glad we’re leaving the state soon. Yeah, it’s nice for epic pass owners to now have an early-season (for the Mid Atlantic) option, but the homogenization is unsettling,

 

[Itinerant skier]

Well they do invest in infrastructure, regardless of any Vail sucks mantra. New lifts, new snow-making, etc. I don't think I've heard any complaints about snow-making at any of the mid-A or NE resorts Vail has bought. (Though I could just not remember hearing them...)

Snowmaking is THE biggest complaint by skiers at Wildcat/Attitash, Crotched and to a lesser extent Sunapee. Crotched still isn't open, yet nearby town tow McIntyre managed to get their stuff together enough to open.

 

[Brad J]

I just don't get it buying more areas when you can't run the ones you have?????

 

[HardDaysNight]

I just don't get it buying more areas when you can't run the ones you have?????

Pretty much the definition of a Ponzi scheme as modified by Vail.

 

[SKIBUM 6]

The Pirates are the new Mets?
Hopefully you at least get the ridiculous soap opera part that makes for entertaining sports radio.

Pgh. Sports talk radio are cow tailed! They wouldn’t say anything against the corporate narrative.
They do let us beef on fan calls. And we do!!

 

[SKIBUM 6]

Seven Springs will prosper. New this season is 750 vertical of lift-served terrain park features starting with easy freestyle features across the summit spine down to their most popular advanced park, The Alley, with 37 or more ever-changing features. This is a real draw for the park set. It will be interesting to see if Vail continues this younger crowd pleaser. Early season add 750 vertical of advanced North Face with a HS 4 or 6, then you have a more diverse product that will compete with Timberline and Snowshoe for interior Mid-A and Southern market. Nutting spent a lot to get terrain park and pipe cred. It will be interesting to see how this goes. Will Laurel and Hidden Valley be a part of the plan? Do they add or subtract value?

Mother Nature not cooperating this year. Up 7 Springs yesterday to get skies from Willies. After their yearly grind and wax. Three runs open. Wagner, Cortina and Fawn Lane. Couldn’t see the alley but zero snow making on half pipe area, North Face, Giant Steps. Brown grass on Tyrol and Avlance.
Heading west in February

 

[ihocky2]

Is there much of any skiing left in PA that Vail will not control? They bought Jack Frost Big Boulder and Camelback, and I thought they bought Shawnee. This is their first year owning Blue Mountain and I have not been there yet to see if it is any different. The previous owner of Blue had some great plans for it, but would never part with her money to make them happen. The only Eastern PA slopes I know of they haven't bought yet are Elk, Montage, and Bear Creek. Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail in the middle of the state they own.

Put some snow guns on it and they might go after the Mount Chrin garbage dump in Easton, PA.

 

[Itinerant skier]

Is there much of any skiing left in PA that Vail will not control? They bought Jack Frost Big Boulder and Camelback, and I thought they bought Shawnee. This is their first year owning Blue Mountain and I have not been there yet to see if it is any different. The previous owner of Blue had some great plans for it, but would never part with her money to make them happen. The only Eastern PA slopes I know of they haven't bought yet are Elk, Montage, and Bear Creek. Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail in the middle of the state they own.

Put some snow guns on it and they might go after the Mount Chrin garbage dump in Easton, PA.

Vail doesn't own Camelback, Shawnee or Blue. Camelback and Blue are owned by KSL which is an Alterra affiliate though they are not (yet?) On the IKON pass. Shawnee is independent and on the Indy pass. Vail owns wayyyy too much, but they don't own everything yet.

 

[Brian Likes Pow]

Snowmaking is THE biggest complaint by skiers at Wildcat/Attitash, Crotched and to a lesser extent Sunapee. Crotched still isn't open, yet nearby town tow McIntyre managed to get their stuff together enough to open.

And now Crotched is a 5 day a week operation, no midnight madness, night skiing cut from 6 nights to 3...mon/Tuesday its crickets. Also I'll add they closed at 230 on the 27th. And we aint done yet The NH operations are hanging by threads.

I truly hope they run things better at these new resorts but man theyre just not the same company they were 10 years ago.

 

[dan ross]

Easy access to cheap capital and a voracious appetite doesn’t bode well for competition, innovation and customer service/experience. That’s why monopolies ( which it seems Vail is trying to become) are ultimately bad for the end user. Ski areas aren’t cars or widgets though, they are more like good restaurants, each with their own personality and offerings that make them unique. Economies of scale encourage standardization, not unlike Starbucks or McDonalds. Is it a viable economic model?
Likely, but iI highly doubt its ultimately good for the sport.

 

[MikeW Philly]

So some of the issues the new Vail acquisitions are experiencing - how much of it is due to lack of staff / knowledge? In general all businesses are hurting there (thanks great resignation), and what from I’ve seen staffing remains an issue at even established ski resorts (funny how some resorts you can’t book a private lesson Right now even a month out). With a take over, which always has a change in staff / tribal knowledge, it’s usually rocky but most business acquisitions (all industries) aren’t moving lightning smooth.

I’m not saying I particularly like VR ( not sure i dislike either more neutral ) but it could be just a timing / short term (1-2 year transition issue).

Staffing pretty much a nightmare everywhere these days.

 

[Brian Likes Pow]

So some of the issues the new Vail acquisitions are experiencing - how much of it is due to lack of staff / knowledge? In general all businesses are hurting there (thanks great resignation), and what from I’ve seen staffing remains an issue at even established ski resorts (funny how some resorts you can’t book a private lesson Right now even a month out). With a take over, which always has a change in staff / tribal knowledge, it’s usually rocky but most business acquisitions (all industries) aren’t moving lightning smooth.

I’m not saying I particularly like VR ( not sure i dislike either more neutral ) but it could be just a timing / short term (1-2 year transition issue).

Staffing pretty much a nightmare everywhere these days.

Thats all good but when you buy up resorts, its generally a good idea to gain knowledge from existing staff. This does not happen, at least in NH. Yeah tough market that why maybe they should scratch their head and try to figure out why people don't want to bust ass in the cold for 13/hr. The grocery store will pay you much more and give benefits. This isnt the west where people dream make those kind of financial sacrifices to live in a place like Tahoe or Park City. They've had time to figure this out.

 

[MikeW Philly]

Thats all good but when you buy up resorts, its generally a good idea to gain knowledge from existing staff. This does not happen, at least in NH. Yeah tough market that why maybe they should scratch their head and try to figure out why people don't want to bust ass in the cold for 13/hr. The grocery store will pay you much more and give benefits. This isnt the west where people dream make those kind of financial sacrifices to live in a place like Tahoe or Park City. They've had time to figure this out.

NH is a tough job market Period so that I don’t doubt. And no argument on any of those points but it usually takes a big company some time to adjust to them. Are they still hiring at those rates now?

It’s interesting it’s $13 an hour. I drove by Taco Bell the other night hiring at $18 an hour here locally. Still not all jobs filled.

 

[Brian Likes Pow]

NH is a tough job market Period so that I don’t doubt. And no argument on any of those points but it usually takes a big company some time to adjust to them. Are they still hiring at those rates now?

It’s interesting it’s $13 an hour. I drove by Taco Bell the other night hiring at $18 an hour here locally. Still not all jobs filled.

its 15 for the VT areas but 13 in NH. As a result the NH resorts are quite dysfunctional this year. Money talks...the other areas around here are running noticeably better. They are on year 3 now so im not all that optimistic things will improve. I suspect they arent done with cuts

 

[MikeW Philly]

its 15 for the VT areas but 13 in NH. As a result the NH resorts are quite dysfunctional this year. Money talks...the other areas around here are running noticeably better. They are on year 3 now so im not all that optimistic things will improve. I suspect they arent done with cuts

Wow did not realize it’s been that long. Not sure what to say. Long terms seems like it will be an expensive loss for VR if they don’t fix it,

 

[Itinerant skier]

Vails NH resorts operate in the same weather and labor market as Cannon and BW. Yet those places have much more terrain open.

 

[Philpug]

There was a time when a pass was incentive enough to take a lower wage. That was when passes were well over $1k, now the cheap passes are no longer the incentive they once were. Plus considering Vail does not have an employer reputation that gives potential employees a warm and fuzzy feeling especially in the crotchety north east.

 

[johnnyvw]

So from an employee standpoint, they may have sold the rope they may be hanging themselves by....

 

[zag]

So some of the issues the new Vail acquisitions are experiencing - how much of it is due to lack of staff / knowledge? In general all businesses are hurting there (thanks great resignation), and what from I’ve seen staffing remains an issue at even established ski resorts (funny how some resorts you can’t book a private lesson Right now even a month out). With a take over, which always has a change in staff / tribal knowledge, it’s usually rocky but most business acquisitions (all industries) aren’t moving lightning smooth.

I’m not saying I particularly like VR ( not sure i dislike either more neutral ) but it could be just a timing / short term (1-2 year transition issue).

Staffing pretty much a nightmare everywhere these days.

As a former employee of one of these resorts, I can tell you it is not the pandemic that has primarily chased the staff away, less then 20% would be pandemic related in PA, majority being people not interested in complying with the vaccine regulations.

Vail has run off a number of management and many guest facing staff who are fed up with the ridiculous Vail policies that work ok in Colorado but make no sense east of the Mississippi, let alone in South PA the lowest elevation/100% snowmaking ski areas in the US. So much so that most have given up a higher base pay rate and just bought a pass so they can ski when they want.

One example: closing the slopeside bar at Liberty at 6pm (instead of 8-9) on Sundays when the bar area is normally filled with parents waiting for their kids to finish skiing for the night.