Vail Town Council Raises Parking Pass Prices

[Bill Miles]

I don't see how they can do that.
I mean, what about all the kids who are young enough they don't have a cell phone?
Heck I know a few ski instructors who still use a flip phone.

Are there any such kids, nowadays?

 

[tball]

The main road was a highway, but not a wide freeway. It was widened later, but it was still a main interstate route, from the edge of the Eisenhower years. Just much narrower, and winding/dangerous on the pass back then.

I first skied Vail when it opened, 1962 or so.
(We went up to hang out with Pete Seibert in the summer before it opened, actually. (He and my Dad had the war in common, though they served in and near Italy at different times, Seibert's10th much later.)
A nice man, to a kid/teenager. Very easy going. My imperfect memories of him are mostly in the summers. A big man.)

The parking was just across the creek from the village and lifts. A bit of a walk, but winter cosy - on a pedestrian walk, not a road - downhill, then uphill to village center and the lift.

Riva Ridge was the main, and best, ski run, back then, other than the Bowls. Named for the high ridge held by the Nazis across a part of Italy, whose slopes some of those men had to fight up. Back then, I thought it was named after a woman, like Ruthie's Run in Aspen. These days, most of the skiers at Vail don't know that run exists - it just blends in with so many other runs on what has become such a large ski area.

Pepi's was almost the only restaurant. We went up there that first year with Willi Schaefer, the head ski coach of the DU ski team, a friend of my Dad's, and of Pepi. Through Willi, we also visited with Pepi, but then, everybody knew/visited with Pepi in those days, holding court at his table, or pulling up a chair at yours: it was like a very small Alpine village back then, not many people, a small circle partly bonded by an horrific war, partly by pioneer skiing; and Pepi's restaurant/hotel made that place, back then. Pepi Gramshammer. Amazingly nice person also. (He too was kind to kids.) Vail had good beginnings, in spite of being sort of like a highway truck stop, carved out of a high valley ranch to make a new, improbable ski area - narrow down below, wide horizons way up high.

Thanks for the history! I didn't realize Sun Up/Down bowls opened the first year. Smart, they immediately saw the good stuff.

There have been huge changes in "only" sixty years in the grand scheme. In that context, I think the new Camp Hale National Monument will be a good thing over the next sixty years in keeping the ski areas more like what we have today.

 

[tball]

1962 Vail ski area map from skimaps.org:

Note the lift-to-lesson cost ratio vs. today.

 

[Tricia]

Are there any such kids, nowadays?

I hope so.

 

[VickieH]

Note the lift-to-lesson cost ratio vs. today.

A lift ticket was $7. A private lesson was $12 per hour, or 171% of the cost of a lift ticket.

A lift ticket for 1/18/2023 is $245. A private lesson for that day (3-hour minimum) is $890. That is $297 per hour, or 121% of the cost of the lift ticket.

Huh, who knew ski lessons today are such a bargain.

[Bought in advance, the 1/18/2023 lift ticket would be $208 and the 3-hour private lesson would be $855.]

 

[mdf]

A lift ticket was $7. A private lesson was $12 per hour, or 171% of the cost of a lift ticket.

A lift ticket for 1/18/2023 is $245. A private lesson for that day (3-hour minimum) is $890. That is $297 per hour, or 121% of the cost of the lift ticket.

Huh, who knew ski lessons today are such a bargain.

[Bought in advance, the 1/18/2023 lift ticket would be $208 and the 3-hour private lesson would be $855.]

Maybe that's why lift ticket prices have gone up so much in the past few years!

 

[VickieH]

Maybe that's why lift ticket prices have gone up so much in the past few years!

Yes! And I'm thinking ski lesson cost went up to keep pace with the wages for ski instructors.

Actually, it would be interesting to add in data about ski instructor wages at Vail then and now.

 

[mdf]

Yes! And I'm thinking ski lesson cost went up to keep pace with the wages for ski instructors.

Actually, it would be interesting to add in data about ski instructor wages at Vail then and now.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I thought lessons were already in the $800 range when lifts were still around $70.
There was a sudden increase in daily lift prices as the mega-passes took over.

 

[Nathanvg]

1962 Vail ski area map from skimaps.org:

Note the lift-to-lesson cost ratio vs. today.

FYI it's a 67-68 map (note holiday dates with year listed in the image). In 62 the Vail had just 3 lifts: gondola 1 as well as chairs 4 and 5 (older versions of each of course). It grew fast.

 

[VickieH]

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I thought lessons were already in the $800 range when lifts were still around $70.
There was a sudden increase in daily lift prices as the mega-passes took over.

I have to claim a bostedo on that ... "before my time". The first time I was at Vail -- my 2nd year skiing, IIRC -- lift tickets were already around $130 at the window.

 

[tball]

FYI it's a 67-68 map (note holiday dates with year listed in the image). In 62 the Vail had just 3 lifts: gondola 1 as well as chairs 4 and 5 (older versions of each of course). It grew fast.

Oops, sorry for the typo. That's the earliest map they have. All the vail maps are here:

Vail

105 ski trail maps for Vail at Skimap.org

skimap.org

 

[mikel]

Yes! And I'm thinking ski lesson cost went up to keep pace with the wages for ski instructors.

Actually, it would be interesting to add in data about ski instructor wages at Vail then and now.

Not sure about that. Loveland went to $20 an hr. to match other places that did. Half day private there is still only $329 and they still offer discounted lift tickets for the days of instruction.

 

[VickieH]

Loveland is a bit of an outlier. They offer perhaps the best value in lessons in the area. And their day tickets now don't cost what Vail's did about 15 years ago.

I suspect @mdf is right about day tickets going up quickly when mega-passes entered the picture.

I would be interested to see the relationship between some of the data, but I still believe the main driver for price increases is simply "what the market will bear". If they're achieving record sales year over year, the prices are nowhere near the top ... which also tells us what to expect in the future.

 

[KingGrump]

There was a sudden increase in daily lift prices as the mega-passes took over.

Not sure what was the lesson prices at Vail prior to the Epic pass. The Epic pass hit long time ago. I remembered having Epic passes back in the 2010 & 2011 seasons.

I did look at the private lesson prices at Jackson Hole in 2014. I was around $1K. That was pre-Ikon.
I am sure Vail was up there also.

 

[mdf]

main driver for price increases is simply "what the market will bear"

But in markets where there aren't enough players for an optimum to shake out, it is really "what some guy in an office somewhere thinks the market will bear." And he can choose badly.

Not sure what was the lesson prices at Vail prior to the Epic pass. The Epic pass hit long time ago. I remembered having Epic passes back in the 2010 & 2011 seasons.

I did look at the private lesson prices at Jackson Hole in 2014. I was around $1K. That was pre-Ikon.
I am sure Vail was up there also.

My impression was that after Ikon launched Epic changed strategy to force everyone into the pass by raising daily lift prices more than pass prices. And then a couple years later, the Ikon resorts raised their daily lift prices. [I wonder if they said to themselves "hey, look what they are getting away with" or "having a cheaper lift ticket makes us look 2nd class".]

It also does not seem that the mega passes affected lesson prices that much. (They were already high.)

 

[Nathanvg]

It also does not seem that the mega passes affected lesson prices that much. (They were already high.)

My experience is that prices have raised drastically in the last few years. Admittedly, it varies a lot area to area but Vail areas are some of the worst. All prices that follow are for group kid lessons and lift tickets are extra. Vail/BC/brek/keystone $450-300 for most dates; $330 at copper, WP $300, Sunlight $210 (includes lift), purgatory $230, (<12 free lift tickets), Cooper private only, Loveland $169. Tons of areas have just outright droped group lessons for <7 year olds. I suspect these issues are related at least partially to limited staffing and higher staffing costs.

I used to say reasonable pricing could be found at smaller areas but that's not true anymore in Colorado. There are still many good deals at smaller areas in MT, ID, WA etc. Even major ski areas in Canada still have reasonable rates. For example, lake louse charges just $100 for all day kids lessons (USD)

 

[fatbob]

I think they are probably pricing right for them in the right now. Hell they can't get enough instructors at the price they are prepared to pay ( essentially it's a job for those of private means only)so they can jack the price on those they can get and still sell out capacity most of the time.

They could obviously be more efficient filling more hours for staff off peak by clearing lessons at a much lower margin - still a positive contribution. But they don't want to.

The pitfall comes 15 -20 years down the line when all the families that couldn't afford to get started in skiing don't show for spendy vacations as adults.

 

[SBrown]

The main road was a highway, but not a wide freeway. It was widened later, but it was still a main interstate route, from the edge of the Eisenhower years. Just much narrower, and winding/dangerous on the pass back then.

I first skied Vail when it opened, 1962 or so.
(We went up to hang out with Pete Seibert in the summer before it opened, actually. (He and my Dad had the war in common, though they served in and near Italy at different times, Seibert's10th much later.)
A nice man, to a kid/teenager. Very easy going. My imperfect memories of him are mostly in the summers. A big man.)

The parking was just across the creek from the village and lifts. A bit of a walk, but winter cosy - on a pedestrian walk, not a road - downhill, then uphill to village center and the lift.

Riva Ridge was the main, and best, ski run, back then, other than the Bowls. Named for the high ridge held by the Nazis across a part of Italy, whose slopes some of those men had to fight up. Back then, I thought it was named after a woman, like Ruthie's Run in Aspen. These days, most of the skiers at Vail don't know that run exists - it just blends in with so many other runs on what has become such a large ski area.

Pepi's was almost the only restaurant. We went up there that first year with Willi Schaefer, the head ski coach of the DU ski team, a friend of my Dad's, and of Pepi. Through Willi, we also visited with Pepi, but then, everybody knew/visited with Pepi in those days, holding court at his table, or pulling up a chair at yours: it was like a very small Alpine village back then, not many people, a small circle partly bonded by an horrific war, partly by pioneer skiing; and Pepi's restaurant/hotel made that place, back then. Pepi Gramshammer. Amazingly nice person also. (He too was kind to kids.) Vail had good beginnings, in spite of being sort of like a highway truck stop, carved out of a high valley ranch to make a new, improbable ski area - narrow down below, wide horizons way up high.

Thanks for that.Yes, Vail is ersatz Kitz. But it was made by those Austrians you speak of, and it was lovely. I was there a little later, from the 70s. My dad almost bought real estate there in the 60s -- we allllll wish he had -- lol. But I do have fond memories, which is one reason I don't like to go there much now. When Crossroads went down, that made a big impression on me. I mostly go in summer now, maybe fall.

 

[Tom K.]

I blame all these overcrowding-related issues on the invention of the fat, shaped ski!

Bumper Stickers: Make Skiing Hard Again! Stop the Brutal Grooming!