Variable Edges Angles

Wilhelmson

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My kid’s first adult skis are a little burlier than what he is accustomed to. In the past, I have sometimes detuned the kids’ skis a tad, while for mine I leave the hanging burr. But this isn’t about detuning, plenty of other posts on that.

My questions regard the usefulness of graduated bevels along the length of the ski. What does this accomplish and when is it preferred? How are the bevels to be maintained with a stone or set with a file. Or is it just a way overthink?
 

Henry

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One can do a form of graduated bevels themself on the bottom edges. If one wants to get more acute angles but isn't used to the rapid response, here's an example. Say you are used to 1° bottom edge angles but now want to try, say, 0.7°. The first year you can bevel the bottom edge to 1° for about the first foot back from the widest part of the tip, and about a half-foot forward from the widest part of the tail. Feather the graduated part smoothly into the main angle section. Next year when you have the skis shop tuned, keep them the same angle all the way.

I'm unsure about varied side edge angles. It's good to hear Erik's experience. And, I like something I can adjust and sharpen myself at home.

Detuning is all about the skier. I really like the edges sharp all the way from the widest point of the tips to the widest point of the tails. I like to roll my skis onto their edges smoothly. A friend is sure that sharp tips put him into the hospital. I think he is more of a stab the ski into the snow to turn kind of skier. He thinks the shop should have detuned the tips after the tune. I tell the shop to never detune my skis.
 

GregK

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A ski base that is not flat from the factory(usually edge high) along with base bevels not being consistent(usually low in spots) or hanging burr issues are common reasons people may find a ski more demanding than it should be.
Instead of getting a stone grind to properly flatten the ski and then making sure edge bevels are uniform, many start chasing their tails by increasing edge bevels or detuning to try and correct the problem. It’s like adjusting tire pressures on certain wheels to try a cure a car pulling to one side when they really need an alignment!
Have seen some online posters going to 2 degrees base angles and 0 degree sides angles tip to tail along with detuning to try and cure “grabby skis” when the issue was an edge high base.

There are now many fully automated machines doing variable edge angles on skis but these all have more aggressive angles done underfoot(usually .5 base bevel) with less aggressive bevels(.8 to 1 degree base or similar to most factory settings) tip/tail. Again the bases are properly flattened during the process which allows the ski to not feel demanding if done properly.
 

GregK

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Wintersteiger’s new Jupiter has ability to do the new V-Edge . One is being installed this month at Corbetts replacing their Mercury model(it’s moving to another location).
Have had an automated tune on a modern Montana unit and they have a variable base bevel (.8 to 1 degree on the tips/tails and .5 underfoot) as their ONLY option on the base bevel.
 

Dave Marshak

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Back in 199? the Dynastar rep around here tuned G9’s with a variable base angle. He used a smooth file with packing tape wrapped around it. He put a mark on the file where it would make 1degree for a reference. I think he put 1.5 on the tip and tail and 1 on the base. Those were the best skis I had ever skied.

dm
 

Atomicman

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I have tried it.....hated it. I did my skis this way a couple of seasons ago...awful. Many moons ago a pro-tuner used a variable tune on my skis.......... same reaction.

I didn't like the feeling of the ski hooking up under foot. It felt like the base was closer to the snow under foot. If you did hook up the tip it felt like pressure built up under foot almost like skiing over a bump. not for me. I don't agree with some of the comments on the side of the graphic. Like chatter is from improper boot alignment. Can be one cause, but generally it's from pressuring the ski improperly on a steeper hard snow slope.
See below
 

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James

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I didn't like the feeling of the ski hooking up under foot. It felt like the base was closer to the snow under foot.
I agree. Felt like magnets or glue under foot. I think it was/is over promoted by shops with a Montana machine.
 

Dave Marshak

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I agree. Felt like magnets or glue under foot.
That's sounds like what I want. Maybe just do the outside edges and switch them to inside to ski National when it's bony.

dm
 

oldschoolskier

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My kid’s first adult skis are a little burlier than what he is accustomed to. In the past, I have sometimes detuned the kids’ skis a tad, while for mine I leave the hanging burr. But this isn’t about detuning, plenty of other posts on that.

My questions regard the usefulness of graduated bevels along the length of the ski. What does this accomplish and when is it preferred? How are the bevels to be maintained with a stone or set with a file. Or is it just a way overthink?
I'm going to call @Atomicman for this one as I remember a very good informative thread years ago (on several sites ago).
 

Dave Marshak

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My last post reminded me that a long time ago a friend accidentally put a serrated edge on his ski by using too much pressure on the file. He skied it anyway and reported that it held great on ice but was way too slow. Six or eight inches of serrated edge on powder skis might not be noticable but it would get you through the odd ice flow pretty easily.

dm
 

Swede

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Sounds like you work on your skis yourself? Variable edges will complicate things a lot, unless you have a machine at home that do variable edges.
 

Dave Marshak

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Sounds like you work on your skis yourself? Variable edges will complicate things a lot, unless you have a machine at home that do variable edges.
The only hard part of a variable base edge is getting to flat to start. If I figure that out I’m all in on trying different base angles

Well that settles it. No variable edges in my home.
Don’t give it up until you do the experiment. I suspect there’s some significant confirmation bias going on about this stuff so an actual experiment would be fun.

dm
 

princo

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A reputable ski shop in Breck suggested me a variable tune on the side bevel, using 2* in the front and 3* in the back once he asked me how I liked the ski. I mentioned that the tails were washing out more than what I was used to and the tuner suggested to give the mixed tune a try. I kind of liked it for that ski (90mm under foot). With that tune the ski wasn't hooky in the bumps or off piste, but with the 3* on the back half, it could hold the turn a bit better on hard pack.
 
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cantunamunch

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A reputable ski shop in Breck once suggested a variable tune on the side bevel, using 2* in the front and 3* in the back once he asked me how I liked the ski. I mentioned that the tails were washing out more than what I was used to and the tuner suggested to give the mixed tune a try. I kind of liked it for that ski (90mm under foot). With that tune the ski wasn't overly hooky in the bumps or off piste, but with the 3* on the back half, it could hold the turn a bit better on hard pack.

I've kind of been wondering about that - specifically whether a back-half-sharper could be a useful tool.

Ask your tuner if he's ever done that on tele skis?
 

Dave Marshak

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A reputable ski shop in Breck suggested me a variable tune on the side bevel, using 2* in the front and 3* in the back…
That makes no sense to me. I’ve never heard of more than 1* on the base and side edge angle makes no difference unless the snow is bulletproof. I sharpen almost every day at home in the East but I’ve never bothered to sharpen the skis I keep at my son’s house in Denver.

dm
 

James

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It’s just justifying machines that cost $500k. Very few did “Radial” tunes, (different base bevels in front and back then middle), until Montana came out with that machine.

The vast majority of problems and why people don't like skis are base related, or have an egregious edge issue like structure in the base edge.

Whether a junior gets a Radial tune or not makes little difference, but I’d go .7 in the middle, even 1.0, not 0.5.
 
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