Varus wedge placement experiments

[WildBillD]

Hi All
I am an experimenter and like to play around with my equipment in order to make it more attuned to my body position and type. Since the part of my body closest to the snow is my foot and ankle joint, I have started there.

Have owned many foot beds made by the multiple highly respected boot fitters in the industry -all with same result - slight pain on the lateral side end of the tibia(often referred to as the ankle bone) just above the subtalar. This resulted in rubbing and lose fit around the ankle joint plus loss of purchase just below first met head arch. Truth be told, I never followed up with those fitters because all created foot beds were once and done events. The outcomes were identical and I did not go back to any boot fitter due to his appointment availability and distance - my mistake. I have a medium height arch uncorrected, and never ever knew what a good fit was and what it should feel like. I trusted the judgement of the boot fitter and thought you had to trade off a little bit of pain for better performance. I thought the boot fitter did all he could do first time. I should have known better

Recently I spent some time out west and went to a boot fitter in order to relieve pain in my ankle bone(lateral end of tibia), together the boot fitter and I discussed my skiing performance and comfort issues. Both feet needed a forefoot varus and subtalar joint neutrality correction, with the right foot the worst. Fitter put in the appropriate corrections in my original foot beds, which include a slight forefoot varus(height at tapered highest point on met head was less than a 1/8 inch material and extended past first met head and included leveling at beginning of forefoot arch). Additonally extending heel area to be more level under subtalar. This combination tightened up the fit around the ankle and eliminated the ankle bone rubbing against the boot cuff. But some minor problems remained such as the foot did not feel flat and it was slightly harder to go laterally from inside to outside edge.

Such success encouraged me to have another foot bed made by the shop owner who has experience making foot beds for Olympic -caliber and amateur racers and fully understood the problem. This new foot bed resulted in about 3/8 inch high sloping varus over the entire first met head plus some of the beginning slope of the arch. outside edge to inside edge and vice versa was much quicker, the ski rode flat, and I had strong edge control directly under foot and at back arch just forward of the heel. Only issue was that toes seem to be pointed up, and its harder to engage the front of the ski at slow speed, arc to arc at speed with forward and lateral pressure at the first met head was better but not optimal at engaging ski tip(climbing the ladder up over the first met head so to speak). All kinds of canting was suggested, but the original foot beds required no canting. Plus there seemed to be a pressure point under first met head of the new foot bed, which was not terribly uncomfortable but irritable and noticable

In summary, my modified old foot bed, allowed better control at the front of the ski, strong edging at forefoot and middle of ski , and slight tail wash, which could be overcome by whole ski concentration, especially at the end of the turn. The modified foot bed allowed quicker short radius turns,and was a slimmer foot bed, and there was very little pressure under the first met head

New foot bed, excellent control and strong edging under foot and back of ski, foot felt flat on boot -a good thing for pivot slips and moguls), almost effortless transitions from inside to outside ski and vice versa, but engaging the front of the ski rather than the middle felt strained

My ideal setup would be better forefoot pressure and easier tipping at front of the ski(as in original modified foot bed), better forefoot pressure at start of turn(modified foot bed), combined with underfoot control of new foot bed, and effortless turn transitions of new foot bed.

BTW , I am more than happy with each outcome of foot bed and certainly has exceeded my expectations, but still not 100% there yet.. My skiing has jumped up several levels and despite my age, I am skiing better now than I ever have. I am trying to improve my mogul skiing, which requires both underfoot and front of ski performance.

So now the question I have -Since I have medium sized arch uncorrected, do I need such a high varus(about 3/8 inch) over first med head as in the new foot bed? Instead can I just include an appropriate varus just below the first met head, at beginning upward slope of the arch, This would give me better purchase and control of the front of the ski.

I am reluctant to modify the new foot bed in any way especiallly by loping off 1/4 inch under the met head and then have to create a complex underfoot angular sloping contour

Is there a rigid platform base or kit that I can build my own foot bed to experiment with? I can eye copy what the professional did. I looked at sidas and masterfit blanks(39.00) and they are kind of flimsy rubbery under foot. I need something rigid that I can remove continually from a ski boot.

Does anyone know where I can get foot bed materials to make my own foot beds ?

 

[surfski]

In short yes because i have but i would need to look and see if i can find where i got them from.
I have i think spent £2,000 now on foot beds in my skiing lifetime so that is in part where im coming from.
I now use either a Sidas "archflex control" foot bed off the shelf cost less than £20 or I have Lenz footbeds made at the Atomic factory which for me are the best foot beds ive had made.
This includes what are now very small areas of foam under my 1st met head for a forefoot varus.
I have bought 'pillows' to mold my own beds and spent many hours reshaping the footbed 'posting' to include correction for over pronation and forefoot twist etc.
So I will in an effort try to help you then give my advise as to what i would do !
I have a 'few' boots' and go in racer style in all but the cabrio boots i own.
The off the shelf Sidas which are no longer made are good as they are thin fit all my boots so offer the advantage of consistant comparisons between boots.
They seem to work with a gel pad under the arch to make my foot 'work' actually activate it including while skiing. They fit all my boots easily, are comfortable which is very important, they do not impede the function of my feet and allow good and balanced pronation and supination. It also seems that my feet gain strength over time using them. The downside is it seems they are no longer available. Note i add some tape layers under the 1st MET head but what that seems to do is to trigger proprioception there.
NOTE i have on one foot bed gone to a piece of 1/4 inch thick foam under the 1st met head! this gave me great assistance in alignment to aid balance laterally HOWEVER when you get this much under the foot it can become difficult to get over the hump for for and aft balance. Next this is so much that the fit within the boot can also become problematic.
I have found that if you wedge things enough heel and forefoot my foot felt as though it was sliding into the lateral side of the ski boot not comfortable at all.
Back to the Hard or stiff foot beds. When I was doing so much experimenting I had to take out the liners and refit them a LOT and the hard inflexible foot bed blanks i used made this VERY difficult and sometime required i put the liner on to even manage this, unless you have of course a boot fitters spreader to help.
Next i would like to make it very clear that i found what may seem unbelievable but when sanding the posting which I finished very accurately and carefully by hand even one swipe over sandpaper attached to a completely flat surface was noticeable by me, so I am trying to show that very small changes can make a big difference.
Also there is a relationship between the hind or rear of the foot and the forefoot so a change in one area can impact the other.
My advise having said all the above and if you are determined would be to return to the owner of the shop and ask for a second identical foot bed to be made which you use calipers to measure the depth of forefoot varus posting and then VERY carefully begin to modify this sanding or shaving down with a scalpel blade the posting and testing each small change.
To mold your own beds requires neoprene cushions and blanks or a more expensive system and the blanks themselves which have changed over time even the top sheet is important in my opinion and i also bought a bench sanding machine for trimming the outline to shape and the initial taking down of the posting, so I would suggest if you do not want a full extra foot bed made to adjust yourself find a shop who you trust to make the blank mold for you.
The posting itself can vary a lot in terms of its hardness and needs to be sourced so again if the foam the shop has is right then next option is get a blank moulded and posted for you to play with yourself
I think you will learn a lot if you try including why it is not easy for a shop to make great foot beds for every customer they see.
If you go the route of getting a second duplicate footbed made to experiment with ask for some additional posting material so that if you remove too much you can add some back
Good Luck

 

[surfski]

Oh and I should make it clear also that if you had a very STIFF completely inflexible blank imagine how as the varus posting is altered so would the posting under the heel have to change

 

[Tony S]

@WildBillD , I am not a boot fitter. (Neither is @surfski , I imagine.)

My gut tells me that your newest footbed, in which you feel neutral and flat, is a good starting point. Can you not go back to that fitter with your concern about access to the shovel of the ski? Maybe that is more about the fore/aft angles of your boot/binding setup than about your footbed. In general, once you've found a fitter who "gets it," don't jump around to other fitters; that just confuses everyone including yourself, and radically slows the march toward a great result.

 

[ted]

Nobody needs a 3/8" forefoot varus post, especially if you have a medium arch height.
Most fore foot varus is actually a supinatus which is a soft tissue displacement often due to a ankle equinus/tight calf muscle. The opposite(a forefoot valgus post is probably what you need. That will reduce the supinatus.

 

[WildBillD]

Also there is a relationship between the hind or rear of the foot and the forefoot so a change in one area can impact the other.

@surfandski Clearly understands the issues I am facing. The second footbed I had constructed is exactly one of the issues mentioned by @surfski

NOTE i have on one foot bed gone to a piece of 1/4 inch thick foam under the 1st met head! this gave me great assistance in alignment to aid balance laterally HOWEVER when you get this much under the foot it can become difficult to get over the hump for for and aft balance. Next this is so much that the fit within the boot can also become problematic.

 

[cem]

Nobody needs a 3/8" forefoot varus post, especially if you have a medium arch height.
Most fore foot varus is actually a supinatus which is a soft tissue displacement often due to a ankle equinus/tight calf muscle. The opposite(a forefoot valgus post is probably what you need. That will reduce the supinatus.

Amen to that!

it sounds like too many people have been playing doctor with too many footbeds, only a very small % of people have a true forefoot varus which is not reducible, most false forefoot varus in ski footbeds is a result of weight bearing casting and the technician not fully understanding the effects of ground reaction forces on the foot in this weight bearing position.

Nothing on this thread can be taken as 100% true unless it is a trained assessor with the foot in front of them who is commenting, however, when you hear hooves think horses not zebras

 

[dovski]

@WildBillD I think you approaching this the wrong way. This is coming from someone who had significant surgery on one foot and has issues with the other. You need to find a truly skilled boot fitter and work through this with them in an iterative process. The one and done approach across multiple different boot fitters followed by a DIY solution is part of the issue. There are two people that work on my boots and build my foot beds full stop. They are consummate professionals who each have 30+ years experience as master boot fitters and have done my last 3 pairs of boots. Our approach is do a proper fitting and make the obvious modifications, ski it, tweak ski it again ... etc. Typically this process runs 3-4 cycles during which they measure my stance and knee toe alignment as we make adjustments. One thing we have done is used wedges and varus wedges to adjust my foot positioning in my boot to address very similar issue to what you are describing. This is a very quick and simple way to test a variety of different angles/heights without having to touch the foot beds. My only point is that you may want to consider finding a boot fitter who understands your feet and skiing style and developing a process with them. This will ultimately lead to better results than a random approach.

 

[WildBillD]

In my case supinates was ruled out.
If the varus is too high over the 1st met head, it will retard planar flexion and ski shovel engagement, not enough varus, and it tends to push the COM to far forward.

Along with the forefoot, the subtalar must be made neutral, and footbed must level out the skier in the fore/aft plane as well as laterally . A lot of slopes and planes in horizontal and vertical directions prior to the arch under footbed, not to mention the heel cup and arch support on footbed top.

If the varus wedge inclination is made too steep or too shallow, it will affect lateral and fore aft leveling and sometimes create pressure points near 6th toe

.The forefoot varus condition is rare, and rarely seen in most boot fitting scenarios, so practical experience with this type of problem may be hard to find

Anyway, it is not cost effective for a fitter or a client, to hone in on the perfect incline and surface slope of the bottom of the footbed, as many multiple shop visits of slight change maybe required as @surfski points out. In order to reduce fitter shop time, it may be best for client to experiment, then see the fitter for a more permanent solution just once

BTW I have experimented with a slight varus( about 1/8 or less using the cover pages of a magazine) under the 1st met head( on a flat floor surface not a footbed), that stabilize the forefoot adequately and it did not take much

Therefore the alternative is to experiment with a prototype footbed that can be easily modified if I can find one. But I will have to wait until next year to fully test what I have now
Anyone out there have this condition and has had it successfully solved?

 

[Noodler]

In my case supinates was ruled out.
If the varus is too high over the 1st met head, it will retard planar flexion and ski shovel engagement, not enough varus, and it tends to push the COM to far forward.

Along with the forefoot, the subtalar must be made neutral, and footbed must level out the skier in the fore/aft plane as well as laterally . A lot of slopes and planes in horizontal and vertical directions prior to the arch under footbed, not to mention the heel cup and arch support on footbed top.

If the varus wedge inclination is made too steep or too shallow, it will affect lateral and fore aft leveling and sometimes create pressure points near 6th toe

.The forefoot varus condition is rare, and rarely seen in most boot fitting scenarios, so practical experience with this type of problem may be hard to find

Anyway, it is not cost effective for a fitter or a client, to hone in on the perfect incline and surface slope of the bottom of the footbed, as many multiple shop visits of slight change maybe required as @surfski points out. In order to reduce fitter shop time, it may be best for client to experiment, then see the fitter for a more permanent solution just once

BTW I have experimented with a slight varus( about 1/8 or less using the cover pages of a magazine) under the 1st met head( on a flat floor surface not a footbed), that stabilize the forefoot adequately and it did not take much

Therefore the alternative is to experiment with a prototype footbed that can be easily modified if I can find one. But I will have to wait until next year to fully test what I have now
Anyone out there have this condition and has had it successfully solved?

Now I really know you're well out of your league on this stuff. Fore/aft alignment is not adjusted using the footbed or the bootboard. You really shouldn't be posting anything publicly. Fine if you want to screw up your own alignment, but no one else should pay any credence to your posts.

 

[dovski]

Anyway, it is not cost effective for a fitter or a client, to hone in on the perfect incline and surface slope of the bottom of the footbed, as many multiple shop visits of slight change maybe required as @surfski points out. In order to reduce fitter shop time, it may be best for client to experiment, then see the fitter for a more permanent solution just once

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Based on your own posts you have spent a lot of time and money buying boots and foot beds from multiple different boot fitters when what you really need to do is sit down with one master boot fitter and work through you fit issues, that is their entire purpose. My boot fitter always wants me to ski a boot several times and then come back for tweaks so we can dial in the perfect fit. If you buy your boots from them or buy custom foot beds they will typically do the rest for free. Even if they charge you for additional visits it will not be very expensive especially compared to what you have been spending so far and with a good boot fitter it may only take a few visits to get to that perfect fit. Experimenting yourself is not what they want you to do. The first thing my boot fitter did when I went to him the very first time, was to remove the foot beds my podiatrist had made me and start from scratch. His point was these foot beds do not work for skiing and since I did not make them I cannot modify them, lets start from scratch and do things correctly. FYI I still have those foot beds 3 boots later and they fit great.

 

[WildBillD]

I only asked for advice and information on my specific varus conditions. I have no intention of giving advice to anyone, and it is your prerogative to accept or not what I say Nor have I ever claimed to have experience in boot fitting. So the purpose of this thread is more to gain knowledge not to give it.

I have been diagnosed at an early age with a skeletal varus deformity which only 2% of the population have, so one would expect only 2% of all boot fitters know how to address correctly. I am sure that if I had access to a good boot fitter for a couple of weeks, I would have a good outcome. But seeing as how we are in the middle of covid, the states where these boot fitters reside are 4 -10 hrs away, and their state entry/exit laws are very draconian when it pertains to out of stater, I have been faced with little alternatives. I had a good bootfitter near me but he retired 3 years ago before we could nail down my problem. We worked well together and he encouraged me to experiment.

I have 3 pair of footbeds - 2 were made by the same guy, one by another.Grind out for hot spots and booster strap 2 others fitters. Each footbed pair has a home in a pair of boots. One pair skis better than the rest

It is not uncommon for ski professionals to have multiple boots and footbeds. I know of PSIA national team members who have multiple footbeds made by multiple boot fitters in single year.

I ski at least 40 days per year, and the liner packs out after about 2 seasons - so it is either a pair of new boots or a new liner. I've had 2 pair of fischer rc4 130's tear near the instep in one year which were replaced by the manufacturer and I eventually dumped them in favor of a technica mach 1 130.

. Let me be clear ,I am trying to address ankle/ foot stability only. So I am not discussing ramp angle or delta angle , zeppa board slope nor canting underfoot or for that matter anything else in the alignment chain.. Having been a ski instructor for 50 yrs, I am familair with the techniques and what they are for and why you would use them.. I have placed my share of duct tape under my binding, and have stuffed enough trail maps in my boot, played with heel wedges. This is common fair at many PSIA clinics I have attended. In order to make things better, one must try new things

I did receive a malicious comment in this thread. I do not think it is appropriate to criticize someone on their knowledge or lack there of, if the critic does do not have first hand information and knowledge on any underlying physiological/medical condition of the OP nor what previous solutions limitations were. When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Criticism is not helpful if its intent was malicious

Recently, I had conversation with sports medicine podiatrist(on the left coast) who works with professional sports teams he believes forefoot, midfoot, rearfoot geometries affect fore/aft and lateral balance and that is why there are at least 3 arch types(low arch, neutral, high arch) each with different surface area to ground contact points and heights. My discussion on this thread focuses on these geometries and contours and the effect they have on balance and ankle foot stability when a footbed is created. Surely we can all agree that a footbed aids in balance.

 

[dovski]

@WildBillD I don't think anyone is trying to target you with malicious comments, but some of us are definitely challenging the approach you are taking as it does not seem cost effective or likely to deliver the results you are looking for. Like you I have a unique foot condition, though mine is the result of foot surgery. Yes in a pinch we all tweak things to get through a day, but per everyone else on the thread who has commented, finding a professional boot fitter who can work with you from start to finish modifying and then fine tuning your entire boot fit, not just your foot beds is the best way to go regardless of whether you are buying new boots, new foot beds, new liners or a combination of the three.

You have to understand you are unlikely to get professional advice over this site from someone who has not diagnosed your situation first. You are also unlikely to solve your problem with DIY experiments. It does seem that when any of us recommend a solution different from the approach you are proposing you ignore it. This is your personal choice, but please remember a lot of people come to this site and read the feedback and guidance provided even though they did not ask the questions, as a result if someone disagrees with you or thinks yours is the wrong approach they are going to say so.

Bottom line is it sounds like you are a great skier who gets a lot of joy out of the sport. I hope you resolve your boot fit issues and continue to enjoy skiing. And just remember everyone on this site has an opinion and many will share it directly with you even if you did not ask for it ... I personally have been called out a couple times, just remember it is not personal and is usually well intended.

 

[surfski]

Actually he was told he is out of his depth and should not be posting on a public forum.
I note elsewhere on the forum there is 'advise' to wear a mask and to "get vaccinated", for those who suffer harm as a result of following such advise i wonder if there is liability actual or implied.
The original poster did indeed look to find answers
Point me to an exspurt or an ex ( a has been ) and a spurt ( a drip under pressure)
He is indeed correct that to 'assume' which many do is to make an ass out of you and me.
I learnt long ago that once a person is arrogant or thinks they know best they shut off learning.
I was going to post and chose not but now have reconsidered to make these observations.
I have learnt a LOT here on multiple topics and could name a few people who were kind enough to share their time and knowledge and experience each gave information freely without judgment.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or in my words before criticising another first look in the mirror to see if you have done the same.
My EX brother in law has four science degrees and worked at government level yet i thought him stupid because he continued to do the same things repeatedly with the same bad results. Qualifications don't make you smart but an open mind might and a curious mind sure ought to (Einstein)
I when considering to post or not was going to ponder this question for those who perhaps thought they knew best here, were they born with their current knowledge or understanding ? because if as i suspect they were not born with all current knowledge but learnt through study experience trying things reading and listening to advice then why not allow we all use only around 10% of our brain and as such every person has the capacity to listen and learn if they so desire to do, perhaps making the world richer for all of us.
If this sounds like i'm preaching well CEM opened the door to that one "Amen to that"

 

[otto]

"Recently, I had conversation with sports medicine podiatrist(on the left coast) who works with professional sports teams he believes forefoot, midfoot, rearfoot geometries affect fore/aft and lateral balance and that is why there are at least 3 arch types(low arch, neutral, high arch) each with different surface area to ground contact points and heights. My discussion on this thread focuses on these geometries and contours and the effect they have on balance and ankle foot stability when a footbed is created. Surely we can all agree that a footbed aids in balance."

A few points to make... One area to look at is where can a skier like you or any other type, or skier level, or biomechanical normality, or biomechanical freak of nature go to have a trained eye and the combination of understanding the sport of skiing, the principles of physics, the ski boot itself, and the human foot as it relates to the sport of skiing, and the ski boot itself. So a left coast podiatrist that works with professional sports teams has a belief. If the belief that your left coast podiatrist stated is a direct quote about balance in the 3 planes of motion related to skiing and the ski boot, the content might just be a little light. Not untrue, just a little hollow as it relates to what needs to be accomplished in a ski boot for applying sufficient pressure to the ski in the frontal plane, sagittal plane, and transverse plan. what I am attempting to get across is that the simplest laws of physics need to be considered with all aspects of the human body and how it relates to the physics of skiing. Lets just agree that gravity is gravity, mass is mass, and the the bodies ability to work with and control your skis through the ski boot needs certain "laws of physics" adjustments to get us into the center of the target.

The conundrum that exists in the world of skiing is that most of the boot fitters out there fitting boots do not have a clear understanding of what it takes to get certain types of feet and lower leg combos properly situated inside the fixed foot device ( ie the ski boot ) To be able to set-up positioning of the forward lean/bootboard angle, the support of the rear foot, mid foot, and forefoot of the footbed, and the common fit modifications to allow comfort for skiing a full day. This would be a great time for someone to ask the question of the possibility of having a podiatrist or a pedorthist to be your boot fitter. And just for what it is worth there are a handful of pedorthists and a couple of podiatrists out in the world that you could seek out. Some of them including me are on this site in the boot fitters forum, and one has already weighed in on the OP's posts. One of the reasons that many boot fitters get a Pedorthics certification is the belief that taking 100 hours of specific school about the foot and passing a certification exam will help to make you a better boot fitter. It could and in cases has worked. Keep in mind that the practice of Pedorthics and Podiatry is not required in any way to be a boot fitter. Also a Podiatrist is a medical doctor, whose training through med school is to become a foot surgeon, not a boot fitter or a shoe salesman. In most modern practices of Podiatry has a component of preventive medicine in that the footbed is understood to work as a way of keeping surgery at bay. The problem with that course of action is the same as any medical practice. There is not much future in the "practice" of doctoring if we resolve issues with preventative methods. so realistically a podiatrist would be castrating their ability to earn if they stopped being surgeons. Now a pedorthist is a technician of sorts that either casts and builds footbeds or footwear as prescribed by a Podiatrist. Some Podiatrists have gotten so far away or never acquired the footbed skills that Pedorthists have simply because that is what a Pedorthist does. What is important to understand as it relates to skiing and the OP's issues is that the entire business model for Podiatry and Pedorthics is based around the walking, running, and standing in shoes that are primarily designed for gait. Footbeds for shoes are all about getting the ground and the foot/ankle/lower leg to play nicely together so that the ground and the body adapt to each other for pain free movement and aligning the body over the feet for stress free movement. There are mechanical similarities with footbeds for fixed foot devices like ski boots, however the main concern is using the footbed along with the control of the hard plastic boot shell to comfortably support the heel bone, arch, and when necessary the forefoot for the task of transferring the movement patterns of the body through the ski boot to the ski to allow you to harness gravity on snow for fun, safety, and comfort.

If the OP can't get to a ski shop with one of the guys that has the knowledge, tools, materials, and understanding of the products and knowledge of technique, there is nothing wrong with experimenting. In my opinion because there is a lot of mystery as to cause and effect of boot and footbed changes on the joints of your feet and ankles and lower legs that having a knowledgable guide in the process would be a very quick and efficient way to improve your skiing and boot fit.

Specific to the OP's situation I offer some basic advice... The footbed is not rocket science especially in regards to how it cups the heel bone and gently supports the arch by matching its contours. Where is gets complicated is understanding how to read and diagnose what should be done for the forefoot. This is where only the best fitters will have a clue. In some cases your fitter will not have the skills in footbed casting which can lead to a footbed cast that has accidental forefoot varus or valgus. If this is the case with a good fitter they will check your forefoot for varus or valgus, or be able to determine if the varus or valgus that showed up in the cast is real. There may be 50 guys in the entire US that could figure this out. As a boot fitter I see hundreds of clients per season that have forefoot varus unintentionally molded into the footbeds they build. WHy this ability is so important is that there has to be respect given to producing a footbed with respect to joint spacing, and there are joint spacing concerns in places that most boot fitters do not even understand where there are joints. Specifically at the joint between the 1st and 2nd metatarsal, and the 4th and 5th metatarsal heads if the spacing does not allow for equal movement upward and downward you can see how applying pressure through the inside or outside edge of the foot could be compromised. The same argument could be made for the bones in the mid foot, or the subtalar joint, however back to my earlier statement if you can cast the heel bone with the achilles tendon perpendicular to the floor and the arch supported within reason to its flexibility, those two areas of the custom footbed are easy for even the lamest of boot fitters to hit a bullseye.

Your footbed could be perfectly designed and finished for your set-up addressing your ankle flexibility, your arch flexibility, the neutrality of your heel bone, the joint spacing and flexibility of your met heads, and if the way it was integrated over your boot board, liner, and boot shell shape could nullify all the work done to produce that wonderfully built device. It is not rocket science, but the person that could best resolve your specific needs has to be one that knows all the steps and has the assessment skills to unlock the clues that your feet and lowers legs are showing.

Based on the time of year and the ski area closures, your process will need to continue until next winter... good luck!!

 

[WildBillD]

Great post @otto in line with my motivation and thoughts

@otto
" Specific to the OP's situation I offer some basic advice... The footbed is not rocket science especially in regards to how it cups the heel bone and gently supports the arch by matching its contours. Where is gets complicated is understanding how to read and diagnose what should be done for the forefoot. This is where only the best fitters will have a clue. In some cases your fitter will not have the skills in footbed casting which can lead to a footbed cast that has accidental forefoot varus or valgus. If this is the case with a good fitter they will check your forefoot for varus or valgus, or be able to determine if the varus or valgus that showed up in the cast is real. There may be 50 guys in the entire US that could figure this out. As a boot fitter I see hundreds of clients per season that have forefoot varus unintentionally molded into the footbeds they build. WHy this ability is so important is that there has to be respect given to producing a footbed with respect to joint spacing, and there are joint spacing concerns in places that most boot fitters do not even understand where there are joints. Specifically at the joint between the 1st and 2nd metatarsal, and the 4th and 5th metatarsal heads if the spacing does not allow for equal movement upward and downward you can see how applying pressure through the inside or outside edge of the foot could be compromised. The same argument could be made for the bones in the mid foot, or the subtalar joint, however back to my earlier statement if you can cast the heel bone with the achilles tendon perpendicular to the floor and the arch supported within reason to its flexibility, those two areas of the custom footbed are easy for even the lamest of boot fitters to hit a bullseye. "

The left coast podiatrist does understand some of the related issues to skiing and lower leg as he does support ice skaters in figure and ice hockey. Since I had to do skating moves in my cert quest, I figured that was close enough to give him credence.
first let me state I was working with a good bootfitter, although not particularly skilled in aspect of varus we were experimenting with touchy-feely contours based upon my feedback , A year prior to when the pandemic hit and he decided to retire.( about 3 yrs ago)

Some of that path forward mentioned by @dovski has already been tread, and there is more to go. I am not trying to circumvent a boot fitter, I just need to find one that understands my specific footbed issue and does not generically cast my foot inappropriately. One of the chief complaints I hear about other customers from the fitter- is they tell the fitter is just doesn't feel right -duh Where? what is happening, what do you feel besides it hurts and where,etc. I try to have these answers and what makes it better before I waste a fitter's time and my money..

According to the podiatrist web site below There are differences between a varus , which is an uncorrectable congenital condition and varus supinatus which is correctable - the two are often confused by clinicians.

Difference Between Forefoot Varus and Forefoot Supinatus

All about the Difference Between Forefoot Varus and Forefoot Supinatus

podiapaedia.org

Once a true congenital varus condition is identified,,the best a bootfitter can do is try to compensate for varus, but as I tried to explain, this compensation involves contact point tradeoffs. It is up to me to decide which compensatory modification gives the best foot/balance performance. It is not a cut and dried analytical procedure( except for first best guess). - put from one area - take from another.
And the prototype I am speaking of is not the same one I would do any serious or everyday skiing in. It is experimental. I do not understand why people would be so opposed to experimentation.

My old boss would say - if you think the cost of learning is expensive, try ignorance.


I will refer you to the following which Which discusses, empirical findings on the The Relationship Between Forefoot,Midfoot, and Rearfoot Static Alignment inPain-Free Individuals.

https://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.2005.35.9.559

This is the area of my experimentation.

I think where I need to go from here is make an appointment with a podiatrist for a full foot/ankle analysis and get a prescription which I can take to a boot fitter with proper understanding. I am currently looking for a podiatrist who understands skiing and will most likely require a CAT scan/X-ray of my feet. Yeah expensive - but hoping my health insurance will pay for most of it. Wish me luck

 

[surfandski]

Lol, I got quoted but I guess someone recently joined with almost the same user name. I guess I'll have to get used to that.

I actually haven't read this thread yet as I'm about to run out the door but I will say to OP that if your situation is unique, you may have to do a lot of experimenting on your own. I've been to some of the "best of the best" boot fitters hoping that someone had a magical equation for my completely fused right ankle but they were all just throwing darts. One guy promised me if I made the 7 hour drive each way to his shop, he'd have me dialed by the time I left and about an hour into my visit I knew it was a wasted trip when he pulled out a spreadsheet and was wanting to use a calculation from years of experience with normal people's tibia, femur and feet. Um, I have zero dorsiflexion in that ankle....if I set up my boot the same as other people, the first mogul or g-out I hit and I either snap my ankle or eject from my bindings even with them on Din 12.... so no thanks! It took lots of experimenting with various combinations of heal lifts and gas pedal shims ranging from 1/8"-5/8" to figure out the optimal fore aft balance for each foot since each I need completely different setups for each boot.

Your situation may be a lot easier for a boot fitter to figure out but my point is that you shouldn't be afraid to experiment on your own. There are some things that a boot fitter just can't help you with unless they have a technical instruction background and are able to spend literally dozens of runs with you making subtle changes and seeing how that affects your performance. Good luck!

 

[surfski]

To state what i hope will be obvious to all here, some people might be better than others in the knowledge and skills department, some will let us say get a perfect result from luck, which is to say that on a given customer they just got lucky and happened to hit all the right spots.
The human body is a very complex vehicle and i highly doubt that even the best in the world would produce a great result for everybody at least without some adjustments and experimentation. If indeed we could guarantee that a certain certificate on the wall meant rest easy you will be sorted then i doubt there would be any discussion of this kind.
You have said it and I have found for myself the truth that the foot bed boot board liner and shell form ill call it a unit which can not only effect comfort, and performance but some combinations tend to exaggerate what I will refer to as my biomechanics weaknesses and other set ups help support a stronger biomechanics alignment.
Having read as most here will have i expect a lot of forums one thing consistently comes up which is the immense degree of time energy and effort not to mention cost that many have had to go to simply to get a ski boot fitted without pain or cold feet or some other problem.
When a person is looking to get also a set up that helps to allow a great skiing experience or level of performance to be attained it is a bit like looking for the Unicorn.
Many fail and indeed some have the opinion that many potential skiers quit very early on due to unsuitable equipment.
I will mention CEM here as he fitted me with boots many years ago, not the easiest task and before he became a pedorthist i believe. What I remember about him way back then was not that he had all the answers but was a person who worked hard who was FOCUSED on each thing he did and i hope i'm not speaking out of turn but whom struck me as bloody mindedly determined to get the result. My point is that it is not easy to sort through the chaff to find and it sometimes comes down to how much effort a fitter is willing to make. In my own profession there are those I would go to and many I absolutely would not.
From where i stand I think regardless of training equipment etc with the need to pay the bills the time and energy required to meet the requirements of those like myself means that it might not feasible to do so in a cost effective way unless I have educated myself sufficiently that i can understand and give reliable feed back to a fitter, that it is not just the 'fit' of the boot but how it impacts my foot function and ability to balance.
I am heartened to have read those posts with good information in them one of which will leave me pondering what they shared in case i had not considered the information before

 

[dovski]

Bottom line is not all boot fitters are the same and you need to find the right one for you. My podiatrist who did my foot surgery, built me numerous foot beds for every pair of shoes I own and they work great. The foot beds my podiatrist built me for my ski boots did not work well because guess what the lab that built them primarily focuses on foot beds for walking and running ... etc. I had to do some research and finally found a shop with several master boot fitters each with 30+ years experience. These guys knew their stuff but more importantly had a process driven approach of diagnose, modify, ski, adjust and we repeated this cycle multiple times. They also took a holistic approach and focused on all aspects of the boot fit and not just the foot bed. Simply put they worked through my issues make lots of small adjustments and testing the results until we dialed in the perfect fit. This meant adjusting the boots, adjusting the liners and adjusting the foot beds. Feet are complicated and we are not born in ski boots so you really need a 360 process to solve for these problems.

 

[WildBillD]

@surfandski I agree. . It is is in my DNA to make things better. but first I would need a good starting point and not reinvent the wheel. It is a good bet that after someone makes me an orthotic I will tinker with it. Some on this forum fear that I do not have the knowledge to venture into this area and will ruin my equipment and I do not have qualifications to even ask a question on this forum.
So be it, if that is the cost of learning, but it beats the cost of ignorance.
Well I am not afraid to learn and can do the research, and destroy something in the process. but I have the confidence that I will be successful because I will do whatever it takes

I have the prerequisite math and general analytical skill to understand the bio mechanics and the information and reliable expertise is readily available on line, such as pedorthist courses or those given by masterfit university. so the realm of boot fitting knowledge is not as closed as one might think. Great boot fitters have had an unlimited supply of guinea pigs upon which to experiment to gain vast experienced knowledge base and that is what sets them apart from a newly minted pedorthist and masterfit participant.

Telling someone like me, that I don;t have the skills to learn, is like waving a red flag in front of bull

I do not know of any sports professional that has not tinkered, adjusted, or modified their sport equipment, and to not do so indicates a lack of knowledge of their own equipment full capabilities. Yes, there are certainly areas beyond the scope of the athlete, but it just takes the motivation of the athelete to understand those things. What metric determines that the equipment and alignment are optimum - the word of the boot fitter or the athlete himself.
The carv tool under the bootliner looks interesting to gain useful metrics of the efficacy of the alignment design -it is only $350. I'm contemplating a purchase

If I don't learn something new everyday, I am dead. I have a ravenous taste for knowledge and if I can't apply that knowledge in the learning process in a constructive way, all is for not.

So in summary, the objective of my post was to gain some insight of my specific problem, solicit the opinion of others and be totally open and respectful of the opinions of others.

To summarize, there were many positive responses, some implied I am not qualified to fit my own boots find a fitter, some had anecdotal stories of empty promises of success from many respectd boot fitters, some encouraged me to go for it and experiment as they have. I think the answer falls somewhere in between. Thanks for your responses, I know a good fitter falls somewhere in my solution, but I guess my old work instincts remain strong within me (try before you buy - build a prototype first)