Verdict in LeMaster Killing

no edge

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The penalties for "driving" were weak, even at the .1% limit.. No harm, no foul then.. But, the consequences for killing someone while drunk behind the wheel were quite a bit higher than this..
As they should be!

I saw a woman at Stratton a few days ago. She came down Black Bear which is a black (really a blue). On slick ice, not edge able by mere mortals - she was flying low and I was standing below watching. Nobody was skiing center of the trail... it was too icy. She didn't loose her edge hold at all and I guess her speed at 40 - 45. She made it seem so effortless and completely in control. I was impressed to put it mildly, my mind went to this thread. Was it safe?
 
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James

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She made it seem so effortless and completely in control. I was impressed to put it mildly, my mind went to this thread. Was it safe?
There was no one below, so if if she went into a death slide she just hits the trees.
But, it’s Russian Roulette. You just want to minimize the bullets and maximize the chambers.
 

fatbob

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There was no one below, so if if she went into a death slide she just hits the trees.
But, it’s Russian Roulette. You just want to minimize the bullets and maximize the chambers.


So are we saying that no one is categorically, absolutely "safe"?

I think that is what I tend to believe, anyone might have an equipment malfunction, hit an ice path, hit a divot or a bit of cat crap, flat light might mean they fail to visualise a terrain feature or they might miscount skiers below them (because some are screened when they look) or fail to anticipate someone coming flying blind out of the woods. There might be various degrees of negligence associated with these "accidents" a properly adjusted binding suddenly shattering being less forseeable than ice when weather conditions have been clearly poor.

I guess the best mitigations would be speed related to allow for the unforseen.
 

cantunamunch

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So are we saying that no one is categorically, absolutely "safe"?

I don't know about 'we'.

I am saying that someone demonstrating 'control' within a system -let's use metaphor and call it a two body problem - of just them and the ski hill says absolutely nothing about their level of control within a -staying with the metaphor - three-body problem of them, the hill, and an additional hill user.

 

Seldomski

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Was it safe?
Not going to get to 100% safe for any individual, but I think it is possible to ski in a way that collisions between skiers are nearly impossible (ie would require multiple independent equipment failures or improbable simultaneous medical emergencies).

Adjust speed and tactics for the terrain, snow, and others on the hill.
 

monkeypunch

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Not going to get to 100% safe for any individual, but I think it is possible to ski in a way that collisions between skiers are nearly impossible (ie would require multiple independent equipment failures or improbable simultaneous medical emergencies).

Adjust speed and tactics for the terrain, snow, and others on the hill.
Lol unless you are the only one on the hill, no its not. Stop living in fantasy land.
 

James

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So are we saying that no one is categorically, absolutely "safe"?
Is relying on someone not crossing the painted or imaginary centerline driving on the road absolutely safe? No.
 

dbostedo

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Lol unless you are the only one on the hill, no its not. Stop living in fantasy land.
I don't think you nearly have to be the only one on the hill for @Seldomski 's take to be true. But it does have to be an uncrowded hill.

But even on a relatively crowded hill, adjusting speed and line to minimize the possibility of collision can certainly still be done. I.e. give space when passing so that the other skiers possible sudden movements will still avoid collision, and change speed when passing too to help with that.

On a truly crowded hill, I'm probably going very slow and/or just heading for the lodge. :P
 

cantunamunch

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Not going to get to 100% safe for any individual, but I think it is possible to ski in a way that collisions between skiers are nearly impossible (ie would require multiple independent equipment failures or improbable simultaneous medical emergencies).

Adjust speed and tactics for the terrain, snow, and others on the hill.

Highways in snowstorm. Everyone's a safe driver, who should be able to adjust speed and tactics. Yeah.

But even on a relatively crowded hill, adjusting speed and line to minimize the possibility of collision can certainly still be done. I.e. give space when passing so that the other skiers possible sudden movements will still avoid collision, and change speed when passing too to help with that.

I point to a snowy I-95 and I absolutely challenge 'can certainly still be done'
 

fatbob

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Is relying on someone not crossing the painted or imaginary centerline driving on the road absolutely safe? No.
I meant the other way round. My strawman is that everyone who straps on a board or pair of skis is potential unsafe to someone else and everything ends up on a spectrum. Is MS on a public groomer likely to be a danger to me? No. Is Tre Heelbalancer III with his dynamic not quite falling "turns" as the fratboys try to be first to the bar? Quite likely yes. Everyone else? Somewhere in between.

The fact I haven't tuned my edges in 20 days may not be unsafe but might suddenly become unsafe if I come in too hot to an unseen ice patch.
 

James

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My strawman is that everyone who straps on a board or pair of skis is potential unsafe to someone else and everything ends up on a spectrum. Is MS on a public groomer likely to be a danger to me? No. Is Tre Heelbalancer III with his dynamic not quite falling "turns" as the fratboys try to be first to the bar? Quite likely yes. Everyone else? Somewhere in between.
Not a strawman at all, just fact.
Yep. Everyone else is a maniac. Beware.
Frames of reference.

And…someone here almost took out Mikaela several years ago, or vice versa. ( his fault ogsmile) Saw it with my own eyes.
 
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socalgal

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I don't know about 'we'.

I am saying that someone demonstrating 'control' within a system -let's use metaphor and call it a two body problem - of just them and the ski hill says absolutely nothing about their level of control within a -staying with the metaphor - three-body problem of them, the hill, and an additional hill user.
Have you been reading Liu Cixin lately?
 

ThomasD

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Thanks for the link.

“Based on a complete review of the evidence in this case, the District Attorney’s Office does not believe there is enough evidence to establish the requisite mens rea (a defendant’s intention to commit a crime). Therefore, we cannot charge Mr. Martinez with homicide-related charges as there is no reasonable likelihood of success at trial. The series of events on November 30, 2021 that led to the death of Ronald LeMaster are horribly tragic, and while homicide-related charges are not appropriate, we acknowledge the immense loss suffered by the family and friends of Mr. LeMaster.”

Isn't that what manslaughter is all about??? Are things different in Colorado? If I kill someone walking down the sidewalk because I lost control of my car doing 180 in a 30 mph zone and leave the scene I get leaving the scene only??

“Martinez said as he was coming down the left side of the run, he could see LeMaster in front of him weaving back and forth in the center of the run,” according to the report. “Martinez said as he was getting closer to LeMaster, LeMaster took a sharp turn and began coming towards the left side of the run. Martinez (stated) he began yelling 'Left, left, left' attempting to let LeMaster know he was on the outside of the run. Martinez said he was unable to avoid the collision with LeMaster and their heads collided.”

Lock him up! If you can't lock him up for involuntary manslaughter and criminal wrecklessness then Colorado needs a new law.
Not 100% clear on CO law but I cannot imaging that their law does not encompass negligence (no mens required) in matters of homicide, ie. what may states term manslaughter. Me thinks the DA was blowing smoke and simply did not want to open this can of worms.
 

cantunamunch

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Well if people are skiing out of control, it is impossible. I agree with that.

Control is such a weird word.

Look at it this way: RLM was skiing, completely in control.

The moment the second person showed up, RLM lost control of the situation, no matter how he skied.
 

fatbob

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And without victim blaming you could say that he could have regained an element of control depending on when or how he detected the threat.

Collisions take 2 parties, the innocent party can always try to mitigate the actions of the guilty. A bit like easing off the gas when you see a risky overtake coming toward you on the road.
 

Shawn

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Well if people are skiing out of control, it is impossible. I agree with that.

For me, the "out-of-control" skier conjures a different image: the kid doing a power wedge down a mountain, a mogul skier who is just barely hanging on, or the guy who needs to do calculus in his head to weave through a crowded ski slope. Whereas a skilled skier who is able to carve arcs at 40-45 mph may feel a sense of complete control and mastery of their movements. However, despite this sense of control, the potential for accidents and mishaps increases at higher speeds due to the physics of longer stopping distances. It is important for skiers to be aware of this and understand that a sense of control does not necessarily equate to safety.
 

Seldomski

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To me, skiing in control (safely) means you can stop or redirect in whatever distance you are keeping from others (and accounting for the relative possible motions for the other skier). There are some who do this, but there is a substantial percentage that are not skiing that way (and are oblivious to the fact).

I know some skiers that can ski really well and can be really close to me and it it still safe. I could do an unannounced hockey stop and they would stop or be able to avoid it. Deb Armstrong (or her videographer) can ski really close to whomever in their videos and it's still safe.
 

locknload

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As someone raising young skiers (12 and 15) this thread just gives me anxiety. Very sorry for what happened to RL. Maybe its my age or being a parent but I'm just so much more aware of the risk out there right now. I've complained on this board about the scene at Mammoth this year and last. Virtually ZERO speed and reckless riding enforcement even with massing 5-to-6 trail intersections. Its making me increasingly uncomfortable.

This past weekend we were skiing at Deer Valley which was very uncrowded due to Sun Dance. I hammer etiquette and safety into my boys and correct them immediately if I see something that creates risk for others and themselves. We were skiing down a relatively uncrowded trail on the left side and a moderate, but safe rate of speed. I was leading. I went to stop on the side and my oldest son cut over a bit too abruptly and nearly collided with an instructor. I barked at my son (probably should've calmed down first) but it appeared that he had blatantly cut off the instructor. My wife, skiing at the rear, told me the instructor had been weaving in and out of all the skiers and was way too close to my son. In this case the instructor was not using good ski etiquette or safety tactics. Just bizarre to me.

Safety out there is a real epidemic...we have to do more in terms of enforcement and eduction. DV had the "15 feet zone" signs everywhere as in leave 15 ft of space around others...I noticed them and it was a good reminder.
 
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