Viable at-home alternative to grinding?

[Jacques]

Have you seen or tried the Kuzmin scrapers yourself Jaques ?
am I to take it that with one of these scrapers i could remove the 'need' for stone grinding ?
Note I never want to spend this long working to flatten a ski again

Not yet, but they will cut crazy. Super sharp.
I'm doing fine now with my carbon steel. Over time, I have only gotten better with making a good edge on it.

 

[Jacques]

Personally, I would never! But maybe that's just me.

 

[Jacques]

Well, if we're going to have fun with a ski tuning video, NOTHING beats this:

I know some take this old video from Doug serious, but really, it was not to be taken so.

 

[Jacques]

You want to put a hook burr on that scraper. You also want to push, not pull the scraper along the length of the ski. Use your thumbs in the middle of the scraper near bottom edge to control scraper flex. I use a chef's knife honing steel to set my burr hook.

Watch these two vids.

Pretty much what I do today, but I leave the file striations. That's what gives the ski base some structure.

 

[oldschoolskier]

You want to put a hook burr on that scraper. You also want to push, not pull the scraper along the length of the ski. Use your thumbs in the middle of the scraper near bottom edge to control scraper flex. I use a chef's knife honing steel to set my burr hook.

Watch these two vids.

Push is easier, pull also works, the big difference of what is shown in the Lee Valley video is that with skis do not flex your scraper, repeat don’t flex your scraper, it happens easily (unless you have a super thick one) as this will hollow your bases. Pulling at worst will crown them, pushing will hollow them.

Forewarned, prevents these headaches.

 

[Scruffy]

Push is easier, pull also works, the big difference of what is shown in the Lee Valley video is that with skis do not flex your scraper, repeat don’t flex your scraper, it happens easily (unless you have a super thick one) as this will hollow your bases. Pulling at worst will crown them, pushing will hollow them.

Forewarned, prevents these headaches.

Yes, oldschoolskier is correct. That vid was more for an instruction for @surfski on how to set the hook burr, since he mentioned he was having a hard time doing that. I push so I can put some weight into the strokes. Use your thumbs to keep the scraper from flexing.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Yes, oldschoolskier is correct. That vid was more for an instruction for @surfski on how to set the hook burr, since he mentioned he was having a hard time doing that. I push so I can put some weight into the strokes. Use your thumbs to keep the scraper from flexing.

It is good to mention that this is what it’s for as you can mis lead some of the less informed skiers in your post. BTW, @Scruffy using your sharpening steel is not a good idea as it removes metal and doesn’t set a good on an edge (and can level slight scratches which can snag the base) use a hardened steel pin if you have the skill (for a consistent burr) or even better Lee Valley used to sell a burring tool for scrapers (they used to publish technical bulletins many years ago, before social media, gives you an idea how long I’ve been buying from them).

Personally never need one as I can manufacture 99.9% of my tools without issues with what I have. Getting to the stage with what I do work wise, I am the only source for specific tooling required as there is no other source. This is why I occasionally redirect and clarify issues on tooling. Sharing early learning experience (failures) from 45+ years ago (and along the way).

 

[surfski]

You want to put a hook burr on that scraper. You also want to push, not pull the scraper along the length of the ski. Use your thumbs in the middle of the scraper near bottom edge to control scraper flex. I use a chef's knife honing steel to set my burr hook.

Watch these two vids.

very good thanks scruffy, im not set up with a vice or work bench but did try a honing steel this morning and also the wet/dry suggestion. Easiest is to say i need either some more tools and / or a LOT more practice.
Personally I have been almost exclusively pulling in order to give my thumbs a rest which have had a real good work out with sanding these last few days

 

[Scruffy]

It is good to mention that this is what it’s for as you can mis lead some of the less informed skiers in your post. BTW, @Scruffy using your sharpening steel is not a good idea as it removes metal and doesn’t set a good on an edge (and can level slight scratches which can snag the base) use a hardened steel pin if you have the skill (for a consistent burr) or even better Lee Valley used to sell a burring tool for scrapers (they used to publish technical bulletins many years ago, before social media, gives you an idea how long I’ve been buying from them).

Personally never need one as I can manufacture 99.9% of my tools without issues with what I have. Getting to the stage with what I do work wise, I am the only source for specific tooling required as there is no other source. This is why I occasionally redirect and clarify issues on tooling. Sharing early learning experience (failures) from 45+ years ago (and along the way).

Just a quick point. The chef's steel I have is a honing steel not a sharpening steel. It only realigns a curled blade, it doesn't remove any metal. There are chef steels that will remove microscopic particles of a knifes edge, like ceramic and diamond steels- don't use those. when in doubt get a burnisher.

 

[James]

Years ago I got an SVST thick metal scraper. It’s a little more than 5/32 inch thick. It will not bend at all. It’s hollow ground on the working end like an ice skate. I’ve never used it for flattening, but ptex fill cleaning up. I see they still sell it, personally, if you’re going the flatten your bases route I would get this to have in the arsenal along with a reg one and the SkiVisions tool.

SVST 4mm Steel Base Scraper

High performance alpine ski gear ski tuning equipment snowboard and ski wax winter apparel for skiing and ski racing alpine race gear

www.race-werks.com

 

[Noodler]

Years ago I got an SVST thick metal scraper. It’s a little more than 5/32 inch thick. It will not bend at all. It’s hollow ground on the working end like an ice skate. I’ve never used it for flattening, but ptex fill cleaning up. I see they still sell it, personally, if you’re going the flatten your bases route I would get this to have in the arsenal along with a reg one and the SkiVisions tool.

SVST 4mm Steel Base Scraper

High performance alpine ski gear ski tuning equipment snowboard and ski wax winter apparel for skiing and ski racing alpine race gear

www.race-werks.com

When I used to use my steel scraper to bring down the base, I would tape my thick plastic wax scraper to the steel scraper as a backer to keep it from bending.

 

[James]

Anyone use a scraper plane to do it? Seems tailor made except for the steel edges on the ski. But if base is convex, ok. Veritas’s scraper looks too thin but I only saw one photo.

 

[surfski]

Cabinet Scrapers with Plastic Edge Protector

{ "1": "Cabinet Scrapers with Plastic Edge Protector" }

www.bahco.com

I got this which i saw for sale on a ski site, race place or some such i dont now remember but thought it is an International company and got one from Germany with a high price by the time i paid postage.
I am glad to know about the Swix and Toko versions being stainless i agree would be a waste of time IMO and both the Kuzmin and SVST scrapers look far better suited for this work, happy I did not waste my money on either.
I had expected to ski today which did not happen for reasons outside my control and so having put in a LOT of work time and money this year with so far zero time on snow and little in prospect I will consider what further work im likely to be doing in future on bases.
Certainly if im up for doing all my own work in future with no reliance on a shop then one of the above scrapers and the tools and the skills to sharpen them would seem to be required both to get the bases flat but also with a structure in them. I rechecked my other four pairs of skis including the Dynastars which have not been skied yet and all of them are good enough, perhaps not perfect but certainly fine. I have not checked these new skis in detail on the edges as I wanted to ski them first as they came other than some hot scraping to get the bases clean and well waxed.
The two pairs of Heads well i have not even mentioned the I-Speeds I have been working on the base had a slight wave from tip to tail as well, so I wished to recheck my I-Sl skis but cant say much as they were reground last year and are flat but what they were like originally I cant now say all I know is they seemed to ski fine but without the immediate roll the ankles and the skis respond immediately that a new pair of Atomic DD Sl skis I demoed had. I presume now that was likely the result of a different and lower base bevel, which is why I wanted the bases on the I-Speeds to be totally flat so I could find out what difference the lower base bevel would have. Kind of pointless in as much as with the bases convex and so way off I would not be comparing apples to apples but apples to oranges. In reality with what I now know i would going back in time get a different scraper, scrape the base flat clean up any burrs on the edges and go ski them. Then if i thought they were worth my time get the bases reground flat when opportunity presented and change the base and edge bevels I guess one at a time then test, live and learn hopefully

 

[Jacques]

Push is easier, pull also works, the big difference of what is shown in the Lee Valley video is that with skis do not flex your scraper, repeat don’t flex your scraper, it happens easily (unless you have a super thick one) as this will hollow your bases. Pulling at worst will crown them, pushing will hollow them.

Forewarned, prevents these headaches.

The big debate, push or pull. I think the same results can be had. It depends on the person and the way that works for them.
One way is not superior to the other.

 

[Jacques]

It is good to mention that this is what it’s for as you can mis lead some of the less informed skiers in your post. BTW, @Scruffy using your sharpening steel is not a good idea as it removes metal and doesn’t set a good on an edge (and can level slight scratches which can snag the base) use a hardened steel pin if you have the skill (for a consistent burr) or even better Lee Valley used to sell a burring tool for scrapers (they used to publish technical bulletins many years ago, before social media, gives you an idea how long I’ve been buying from them).

Personally never need one as I can manufacture 99.9% of my tools without issues with what I have. Getting to the stage with what I do work wise, I am the only source for specific tooling required as there is no other source. This is why I occasionally redirect and clarify issues on tooling. Sharing early learning experience (failures) from 45+ years ago (and along the way).

I have had good results just using a screwdriver shaft. It's just shaving plastic, not brain surgery.
I have had good results with the "knife" rod as well. Then again the one I have used is 50 years old at least and very worn.
I still say it's in the hands of whoever, so that makes a difference.
If it works to take down a convex ski, then fine. Can it take less time or more time? Sure it can.
A woodworker wants total smooth. A ski base does not!

 

[Doug Briggs]

What a Wintersteiger Scout can do to prepare a ski.

I ought to have taken a before photo but biffed. You'll have to take my word for it, these skis were slightly concave and the base bevels were about 2°. The customer wanted a 1° base bevel so I ran 6 passes with the straight fine pattern I always use for blanking. I would have done a couple more passes at least if I was aiming for a .5° bevel.

 

[surfski]

Having sanded scraped and filed for what was at least 40 hours so in effect what amounted to a full weeks work which included going to a 50 grit aggressive paper even at a latter stage of the work as I was beyond caring about the outcome. These skis were going in the trash can possibly after being cut in two I was that peed off with them. In use they seemed to ski with zero flex or curve from about 3 inches in front of the binding to the tip, like a cantilever plank.
Anyway with the season about done and having had only 3 hours on snow this year the first two of which was learning even what to do on a new slalom ski, I called a halt to working on the I-Speed (version 3.0) and went to doing a LOT of hot scraping and a wax finish.
Today I skied this reworked ski. Even now the ski is not perfect but in use this piece of garbage was today a ski which was compliant easy going good everywhere including hardpack and softer slushy conditions. The ski has gone from a waste of my time to one which I can now see why it is very well thought of by many. Instead of this hinged plank in the forebody body it now easily bends into a full continuous curve and turn shapes can be varied as wished.
I had thought perhaps the previous unbending behaviour was because the edges were not gripping the snow seems this was the case.
As I could not get the bases and base edges right down to zero the base angle remains at the factory 1* and i changed the sides to 3* for what it is worth and left them sharp with no detuning.
Thank you for those who have contributed to help with information and advise it was much appreciated.
I will now get a stone grind to fully flat and try .5* or .7* on the base as and when opportunity presents itself before next season, as the skis have redeemed themselves .
It is of course possible that having removed so much Ptex that the skis are both lighter and more flexible than previously but for the life of me I am still bemused that such an awful tune could be let out of the factory of a major manfacturer !
I would note that my sanded scraped finish with only a white universal wax had excellent gliding properties even when in the sticky snow.