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Viable at-home alternative to grinding?

oldschoolskier

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I have to disagree with the idea that a belt sander is adequate for ski flattening. There are 2 critical problems with using this tool for this purpose. The first is the heat generated on the ski base. Excessive heat is generally bad for any ski, but in this case the heat can lead to warping of the ski base making it difficult to impossible to actually achieve a flat base. Second, because the belt sander is not the length of a ski and requires multiple passes of a ski over the sander, "waves" can form across the base lengthwise that certainly are not ideal.

Stone grinding should be the preferred method for achieving a flat ski for skiers that care about their equipment and the quality of the results.
Maybe based on your comment, a lot of care by some and in some cases never by others.

I find in situations like this it is not the tool that is the problem but the tool user.

Sorry up front but opportunity (too good to pass up) for a little pointed (but friendly) dig has presented itself, are you a user problem speaking with experience? ogwink
 

Noodler

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Maybe based on your comment, a lot of care by some and in some cases never by others.

I find in situations like this it is not the tool that is the problem but the tool user.

Sorry up front but opportunity (too good to pass up) for a little pointed (but friendly) dig has presented itself, are you a user problem speaking with experience? ogwink

I learned the hard way (probably about 10 years ago) that if you just tell a shop you want your skis flattened, but don't specify that you want them flattened by a stone grind, many shops will just slap them on the belt sander. That shop practically destroyed a beautiful pair of Elans I had back then. A belt sander is simply the wrong tool for this job.
 

mdf

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I find in situations like this it is not the tool that is the problem but the tool user.
ogwink
Well, if it takes an experienced toolmaker to get a good result with a certain tool on a common job, I'd say that makes it the wrong tool for the job.

You, @crgildart and @James could probably get good results with an adze, but it's still the wrong tool.
Adz_%28PSF%29.png
 
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oldschoolskier

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Well, if it takes an experienced toolmaker to get a good result with a certain tool on a common job, I'd say that makes it the wrong tool for the job.

You, @crgildart and @James could probably get good results with an adze, but it's still the wrong tool.
Adz_%28PSF%29.png
Yes I do have an adze, I’d use it for roughing and slick for that final finish. :ogbiggrin:
 

oldschoolskier

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I learned the hard way (probably about 10 years ago) that if you just tell a shop you want your skis flattened, but don't specify that you want them flattened by a stone grind, many shops will just slap them on the belt sander. That shop practically destroyed a beautiful pair of Elans I had back then. A belt sander is simply the wrong tool for this job.
I guess a Tool used tool wrong :geek:, his name wasn’t Tim was it?
 

James

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I don’t think it’s an obsession with flatness that’s the issue, but skis that work. Flatness may be a big issue, but it’s not the only one.

It really drives you nuts. Worse, there are people out there who think it’s them, or the ski, not the tune.
There’s only two shops in the East that I would say give you a near 100% chance of walking away with a fully skiable ski. One of those is out of business when the owner decided to leave the industry. I used to drive 2 1/2 hrs to bring him skis. Some were screw ups from other shops. It was easier to just take them and get them done right than to take them back and go through all that entails. If it was certain they’d come out right, maybe it would be worth it.

We’re talking about shops that have $250k+ machines. Some nearly twice that. There is no feedback loop or control or assessment of what comes out of these machines.
Back when I first started with “my guy”, he just had a small manual machine and rented space in a ski shop. Bevels were hand done. By the end, he had one of the big expensive machines. In all those years, like 15, never a bad grind or ski with problems.

I’m dealing with this now. A ski I got last year has issues. Literally the day skiing shut down, I took it out in the morning. Too screwed up to ski, I switched to the slalom skis. Finally last week I decided to deal with it. I went over it quickly with a .7 guide. Lots of metal coming off, tells me the base beveling step was skipped. I didn’t have time to fully bevel it, the metal in spots near the ptex was still untouched by the file. Went out and skied it. Still a bit of a nightmare. Inside ski catch and release, transitions you never know what will happen. They don’t slide well. Two runs and I’m done. If it was fully hard snow would’ve been 1/2 run. Take the Pivots off and feed it to the woodchipper, it’s just not enjoyable to ski.

See, if my guy was still around it would’ve been taken there last year and I would’ve enjoyed it already. Problem solved, for 5 hrs driving and the cost of the grind. It’s now back at the shop, they’re going to bevel the base. We’ll see how it goes.

The whole situation with ski tuning is just so depressing. The industry really needs to figure this out. Making $500k machines with no quality control loop is a travesty.

No wonder people want to spend inordinate amounts to do it themselves.
 
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crgildart

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I learned the hard way (probably about 10 years ago) that if you just tell a shop you want your skis flattened, but don't specify that you want them flattened by a stone grind, many shops will just slap them on the belt sander. That shop practically destroyed a beautiful pair of Elans I had back then. A belt sander is simply the wrong tool for this job.

Shops used belt sanders almost exclusively for decades. Someone did it wrong in your case.. And they have solution to keep them lubricated and cool to avoid burning the bases.
 

James

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Belt sanders are horrible.
Part of the reason they got away with it is the skis were so narrow. The metal edges make a better bridge. Metal and ptex abrade at different rates, pressure rollers compress, and “wide” skis deflect in the middle.
 

Tom K.

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I had a funny/horrible experience with a belt sanded tune decades ago. The shop got my VO Slaloms so hot that the cracked edges (remember those?!) warped in a scalloped pattern in places, and were blue in color in those same places.

Perhaps this was where Lib Tech first got the idea for their Magne-Traction edges?!
 
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TS
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sparty

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...
We’re talking about shops that have $250k+ machines. Some nearly twice that. There is no feedback loop or control or assessment of what comes out of these machines.
Back when I first started with “my guy”, he just had a small manual machine and rented space in a ski shop. Bevels were hand done. By the end, he had one of the big expensive machines. In all those years, like 15, never a bad grind or ski with problems.
...
The whole situation with ski tuning is just so depressing. The industry really needs to figure this out. Making $500k machines with no quality control loop is a travesty.

No wonder people want to spend inordinate amounts to do it themselves.

The quality-control loop on the $500k machines is generally a low-wage employee (at least here in Maine), and that's been part of the problem for decades, if not longer—the local shop that led to me posting has had the same problem, at least intermittently, since then: they end up with one or two good techs and several other folks who either don't know, or don't care, or don't care to know how tuning works, and it's a lottery as to who actually does your skis. In theory, the high-dollar machines are supposed to solve that problem, but apparently they don't.
 

surfski

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not too off topic i hope but I have a Head I-speed which I have never enjoyed skiing. Upon checking the base is flat but is 'high' to the point a base guide with file or diamond makes no contact with the edge and seems a long way from it.
How would being base high translate into how the ski performs or doesn't perform perhaps i should say.
I am 21/2 hours from the only shop i know that i might trust to grind the bases so have been researching ways to get this done by hand
thanks
 

oldschoolskier

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I’ve used a belt sander for the for both skis and I use it commercial production on my products.

Used correctly with a little care and the right belt, getting a flat base, with a slight texture (obviously straight linear) without damaging the base or taking too much off is easy. Then again it does take a bit of patience and time, which is a rare commodity these days.

With CNC controls most have forgotten how to do things old school without computer assistance and minimal tools.

@Jacques @Doug Briggs (sorry guys giving away your age) and a few others might grumble a bit but produce a ski after finishing with a hand tune that nearly (if not) matches the best tune of a $500K machine.

It’s not the tool (it just makes it easier), it the tool user, always has been, always will be.
 

Noodler

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not too off topic i hope but I have a Head I-speed which I have never enjoyed skiing. Upon checking the base is flat but is 'high' to the point a base guide with file or diamond makes no contact with the edge and seems a long way from it.
How would being base high translate into how the ski performs or doesn't perform perhaps i should say.
I am 21/2 hours from the only shop i know that i might trust to grind the bases so have been researching ways to get this done by hand
thanks

The ski will feel "loose" on the snow and lag in edge engagement.
 

Noodler

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I’ve used a belt sander for the for both skis and I use it commercial production on my products.

Used correctly with a little care and the right belt, getting a flat base, with a slight texture (obviously straight linear) without damaging the base or taking too much off is easy. Then again it does take a bit of patience and time, which is a rare commodity these days.

With CNC controls most have forgotten how to do things old school without computer assistance and minimal tools.

@Jacques @Doug Briggs (sorry guys giving away your age) and a few others might grumble a bit but produce a ski after finishing with a hand tune that nearly (if not) matches the best tune of a $500K machine.

It’s not the tool (it just makes it easier), it the tool user, always has been, always will be.

Besides the care that must be taken to ensure that the sander doesn't overheat the base and that "waves" aren't created down the length of the ski, is the concern with how sanding abrades the base material and creates a slow ski. The tearing of the ski base by the abrasive material used in sanding is not great if you care about how well your skis will glide on the snow.
 

Doug Briggs

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I use a Wintersteiger Scout to flatten skis. In the old days, we used a burred cabinet scraper. I like the modern way much better. I use hand tools when I'm not at the shop and only need to freshen a side edge or remove burrs. I've never used any of the modern hand tools for flattening or structuring skis. At this stage in tuning development, we don't use the Wintersteiger belt sander at the shop. We let the Scout do the work; it's better and faster. The stone takes down p-tex and metal to get a base as flat as is possible.

FWIW, for race tunes we do finish work by hand.
 

oldschoolskier

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Besides the care that must be taken to ensure that the sander doesn't overheat the base and that "waves" aren't created down the length of the ski, is the concern with how sanding abrades the base material and creates a slow ski. The tearing of the ski base by the abrasive material used in sanding is not great if you care about how well your skis will glide on the snow.
Touch of a hand scraper set up correctly (a discussion and instruction on its own) to shave off the threads and a good waxing..... Waves (or lack there of) technique.

Like I said, its the tool user and their knowledge.
 

oldschoolskier

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I use a Wintersteiger Scout to flatten skis. In the old days, we used a burred cabinet scraper. I like the modern way much better. I use hand tools when I'm not at the shop and only need to freshen a side edge or remove burrs. I've never used any of the modern hand tools for flattening or structuring skis. At this stage in tuning development, we don't use the Wintersteiger belt sander at the shop. We let the Scout do the work; it's better and faster. The stone takes down p-tex and metal to get a base as flat as is possible.

FWIW, for race tunes we do finish work by hand.
I agree it makes it so much simplier and quicker, but you could do it if needed and still get a good result.

For those without the budget....old school works, as one of my mentors once said;

You either have the money or you have the time, it sucks when when you have neither.
 

KingGrump

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Upon checking the base is flat but is 'high' to the point a base guide with file or diamond makes no contact with the edge and seems a long way from it.

What you described is more likely a excessive base bevel.
 

surfski

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Hi King gump
i have not learnt how to use the quote yet.
I thought the bevel was way off but it would need to be maybe 4 deg to be this bad judged by the amount of lifting the base guide to make contact.
Being me and "having to know' and as I could not believe things to be that 'off' I marked an edge and sanded the base in this area until the guide was working the edge and found the edge abraded across its width using a 1deg base guide which is what the Head bevel is supposed to be
I am undecided whether to follow a hand sand protocol as to me at this point the ski has no value like it is not because of cost to have it ground but availability of a shop.
I am in Austria and the lock downs also mean most of this is knowledge i wont get use out of until next season if even then
All further thought appreciated
 

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