Videos-off piste skiing to critique

[Bruno Schull]

Hey folks,

With great hesitation, I offer these two videos to critique. Please be nice!

5
https://vimeo.com/514271934

This is off-piste skiing with my wife and a guide in Switzerland, where we live. The guide shot the videos, one from above, and one from below. That's my wife in pink, and me in gray.

The conditions were really nice, boot-top powder over a firm base. I was using touring boots and skis, which are much harder for me to control compared to heavier equipment.

The thing that jumps out at me is how static I am, how I have almost no separation or angulation. I think that's because I am generally very unsure and tentative off piste on touring gear. On piste my form is different, but still not great.

In the videos the skiing was easy and fun, but I do struggle off piste when the conditions are poor. That's why I am trying to improve my technique: to manage variable off-piste conditions with safety and enjoyment.

What can I do to get more separation and angulation? How can I be a little looser and more dynamic? Other ideas?

My goal for off-piste skiing is to be more relaxed and dynamic and versatile, able to adapt better changing snow and conditions.

OK, that's it.

Thanks for your help!!!

Bruno

 

[Bruno Schull]

Here are the links again if they don't work above.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Bruno Schull the first video isn't working.
Whoops, we just cross-posted. Now we've got it.

 

[Delicious]

Hey folks,

With great hesitation, I offer these two videos to critique. Please be nice!

5

This is off-piste skiing with my wife and a guide in Switzerland, where we live. The guide shot the videos, one from above, and one from below. That's my wife in pink, and me in gray.

The conditions were really nice, boot-top powder over a firm base. I was using touring boots and skis, which are much harder for me to control compared to heavier equipment.

The thing that jumps out at me is how static I am, how I have almost no separation or angulation. I think that's because I am generally very unsure and tentative off piste on touring gear. On piste my form is different, but still not great.

In the videos the skiing was easy and fun, but I do struggle off piste when the conditions are poor. That's why I am trying to improve my technique: to manage variable off-piste conditions with safety and enjoyment.

What can I do to get more separation and angulation? How can I be a little looser and more dynamic? Other ideas?

My goal for off-piste skiing is to be more relaxed and dynamic and versatile, able to adapt better changing snow and conditions.

OK, that's it.

Thanks for your help!!!

Bruno

Based on the smiles going on in Vid #1, I would say that your technique was flawless!
In Vid #2, it appears as though you were skiing away from heaven, but towards some other alternative 2nd heaven?

 

[Noodler]

Just say "no" to VVS...

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I agree with Delicious above.

Upper body and lower body Separation and Angulation are really not needed as much in longer turns especially in soft snow where you want your skis to act more like a single platform.

Think of Separation and Angulation as RESULTS of the type of turn you are making and the conditions you are on/in, rather than as INPUTS.

In shorter turns you will have more Separation.

On harder snow with higher edge angles you will have more Angulation.

Please post more videos so we can enjoy your skiing in areas where we all would like to ski!

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's a description of your current initiation process, which is working on this terrain with these conditions and offering a ton of fun for you.

You lead your initiations with your head, tipping it into the new turn. Your chest follows, tipping itself into the turn, then the hips, which then tip the legs and skis. I know from experience that it feels great to start "falling inside" with the head - it's an intoxicating feeling. And it's working on this terrain with turns this size. Your whole body is inclined at the fall line. Your skis grip this soft snow well enough for plenty of fun.

You use this initiation consistently for turns in both directions.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's a bit more about your current initiation process.

You not only start the tipping of your skis with a head movement, you start the turning with your head as well. You turn it to look in the new turn's direction, then follow by turning your torso, then your skis catch up at the end. Again, on this terrain in these conditions with this turn size, all of this works just fine.

Here's a left turn. You are long and fully inclined at the end of the old turn.

You crouch a little bit to prepare for the next turn.

You turn your head to look in the new direction and extend your new outside leg to start the turn.

You turn your shoulders and hips to match your head as you reach full extension, and your skis follow.

This process works just fine for these turns. You and your wife both use this initiation.

There are a different ways to initiate turns when you want the to be short radius. You'd want to use those in a narrow couloir for instance, or in bumps, or on hard snow, or wherever you find yourself gaining too much speed.

 

[fatbob]

Not sure I see the problem works well for the slope you were skiing, snow conditions and your turn radius. Maybe think about what you'd do differently for tight powder8s or for super slutty powerburst turns or if you were GSing the slope.

 

[oldschoolskier]

You both ski very up right and slightly back, look at your turns and you skis slightly because of it. Being up right is ok, being back is not, Get slightly forward so that you are balanced, it will change everything that you do. You find turn initiate and finish better, you edge hold will be better.

 

[Mike King]

The first thing I'll say is that your technique is obviously working for you in this terrain and it is clear you are having fun. Good for that!

What might be more ideal would be to have more use of the lower body rather than the upper body. While using upper body rotation to impart a rotation to the skis is a powerful force, it is also one that is slow and can be difficult to manage. Upper body rotation results in a turn shape that is more like a "z." In addition you are creating edge angle by inclining the body into the turn -- there is little or no edge angle being created by tipping the lower leg, or, for that matter, creating angulation in your hip, knee, and ankle. The result is that the pressure tends to be on the inside ski rather than being on your outside ski. And because of the lack of angulation, there is less grip than would occur for the same amount of inclination but with greater amounts of angulation.

Now, in these conditions, angulation is not as important, but if you were on an icy piste, you would have difficulty achieving grip in your skis.

What would be more ideal would be to use your lower body to a much greater extent than you currently are. In the edging realm, tip the lower legs and create angulation in the hip, knee, and ankle to direct more pressure to the outside ski. Given that you are skiing off-piste, the weight distribution between the inside and outside ski will need to be more even than if you were skiing on-piste or in more firm conditions off-piste, but you would still benefit from a bit more angulation and direction of pressure to the outside ski.

Allowing the lower leg to tip in the initiation of the turn would also allow the skis to rotate under your upper body rather than using your upper body to turn the skis only in the middle part of the turn, rather than through the whole turn. The result of turning the legs under the body will spread the rotation of the skis out through the whole turn -- a round turn, rather than a z shaped turn. This will provide more control and be more important as you ski crud, steeper slopes, and more extreme terrain.

Mike

PS, there are other skills that could also be worked on, such as fore/aft balance, but I've started with two and how they are related as this is the requirement for PSIA's Level 3 Movement Analysis, an exam I will be taking shortly...

 

[Fuller]

Hey folks,

With great hesitation, I offer these two videos to critique. Please be nice!

5

This is off-piste skiing with my wife and a guide in Switzerland, where we live. The guide shot the videos, one from above, and one from below. That's my wife in pink, and me in gray.

The conditions were really nice, boot-top powder over a firm base. I was using touring boots and skis, which are much harder for me to control compared to heavier equipment.

The thing that jumps out at me is how static I am, how I have almost no separation or angulation. I think that's because I am generally very unsure and tentative off piste on touring gear. On piste my form is different, but still not great.

In the videos the skiing was easy and fun, but I do struggle off piste when the conditions are poor. That's why I am trying to improve my technique: to manage variable off-piste conditions with safety and enjoyment.

What can I do to get more separation and angulation? How can I be a little looser and more dynamic? Other ideas?

My goal for off-piste skiing is to be more relaxed and dynamic and versatile, able to adapt better changing snow and conditions.

OK, that's it.

Thanks for your help!!!

Bruno

This post could have come from me but perhaps not the day after skiing un-tracked powder.

As others have said what you are doing works well in those sublime conditions but most off-piste skiing requires a higher level of turn execution. It's hard to overstate the fact that it always comes back to fundamental skills. I have to relearn that lesson on a regular basis. If you find yourself flailing about in difficult conditions it's because something is missing from the tool kit.

I recently had some very nice improvements in my skiing that came to me in a rather strange way. My weekly instructor had suggested that I needed to stop folding at the waist and to generally stand taller. Right after that I hurt my lower back which made bending at the waist very painful. Even leaning over the bathroom sink to brush my teeth was painful but I tried to get out on the snow regardless. So I started skiing around some easy slopes like a robot keeping nice and tall - I still hurt but I had a surprising amount of mobility just using my femur / pelvis as a hinge point, keeping everything above that hinge more or less vertical and using my edges to guide the skis. If done correctly that stance and turn initiation will take you into uncharted territory. For me it really showed up in situations like the bottom of a little chute that goes around a tree where you need to switch directions quickly when you come out the other side.

My back eventually improved but the new movement pattern had sunk in!

There's much more to it of course: you can't be in the back seat and you can't put too much weight on the inside ski. You also need to really want to get down that hill. He who hesitates is lost.

 

[Fuller]

I think @Mike King really nails this issue in the above post - once you learn how to turn that way it empowers all sorts of progress in marginal conditions. The only think I would add to it as a recent convert is to stress just how much pressure that outside ski should take on.

Skiers who are still relying on that inside ski for stability have trouble giving it up. Describing the weight distribution in terms of 60/40 may be good advice but in order to apply the correct differential for any given condition it helps to really over do it for a while just to see what happens. Spend a day finding out how much weight you can put on that outside ski - start on piste and move to more varied conditions. Keep the upper / lower body articulation focused on the femur / pelvis. Exaggerate the movement until it feels awkward. It's likely that even then you haven't achieved what is ideal.

I personally misused the advice of "a more two footed approach" to soft snow skiing. As a surfer (in my younger years) that stance and movement felt quite natural when the the groomers were covered in 6" plus of new snow. It's a fun, floaty , flowy feeling that feels a lot like surfing. Of course by 10 o'clock it's a different world and you'll need to know where your edges are for the rest of the day.

 

[Noodler]

I think @Mike King really nails this issue in the above post - once you learn how to turn that way it empowers all sorts of progress in marginal conditions. The only think I would add to it as a recent convert is to stress just how much pressure that outside ski should take on.

Skiers who are still relying on that inside ski for stability have trouble giving it up. Describing the weight distribution in terms of 60/40 may be good advice but in order to apply the correct differential for any given condition it helps to really over do it for a while just to see what happens. Spend a day finding out how much weight you can put on that outside ski - start on piste and move to more varied conditions. Keep the upper / lower body articulation focused on the femur / pelvis. Exaggerate the movement until it feels awkward. It's likely that even then you haven't achieved what is ideal.

I personally misused the advice of "a more two footed approach" to soft snow skiing. As a surfer (in my younger years) that stance and movement felt quite natural when the the groomers were covered in 6" plus of new snow. It's a fun, floaty , flowy feeling that feels a lot like surfing. Of course by 10 o'clock it's a different world and you'll need to know where your edges are for the rest of the day.

I like this advice. It is an interesting voyage in self-discovery to determine how to balance properly to really get the outside/stance ski to support the turn from beginning to end. Most skiers use what I call an "outrigger" turn method, where the inside ski is the "boat" and the outside ski is really just an "outrigger".

 

[Fuller]

Deb Armstrong, as always, has a good take on the subject. This video has a focus on mogul skiing but the advice is sound no matter where you ski. @Bruno Schull

 

[Tony S]

super slutty powerburst turns

The rest of the thread is just fog for me after that. I need video!

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments, the link, and the detailed frame-by-frame--that is super interesting and helpful.

I appreciate the general approach: "This works for you here, so why not?"

I guess that I know only too well how much I can struggle, so I want to improve the fundamentals.

One example of hard conditions for me off piste is dense heavy snow, where you skis sink, get trapped, and basically go in a straight lines, making it difficult to control and turn. I don't mean soft slushy snow where you can turn easily; I mean snow that's soft enough for your ski to sink, but not soft enough to be able to push that snow around once your ski is trapped. It's a terrible feeling!

Case in point, shortly after these videos were taken, as we continued to descend, the temperature warmed, and what had been nice light powder above turned into a dense and heavy mass. As soon as my skis sunk down, I lost control and took a fall.

I'm beginning to think that the solution to skiing snow of that kind is related to weighting and un-weighting, and timing your movements, but then we return to fundamentals....

Back to the piste to practice

Thanks again,

Bruno

 

[fatbob]

The rest of the thread is just fog for me after that. I need video!

Well it is possible to overslut it.

I blame rapidly rotting corn (and technique like Snuffleupagus)

 

[Mike King]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments, the link, and the detailed frame-by-frame--that is super interesting and helpful.

I appreciate the general approach: "This works for you here, so why not?"

I guess that I know only too well how much I can struggle, so I want to improve the fundamentals.

One example of hard conditions for me off piste is dense heavy snow, where you skis sink, get trapped, and basically go in a straight lines, making it difficult to control and turn. I don't mean soft slushy snow where you can turn easily; I mean snow that's soft enough for your ski to sink, but not soft enough to be able to push that snow around once your ski is trapped. It's a terrible feeling!

Case in point, shortly after these videos were taken, as we continued to descend, the temperature warmed, and what had been nice light powder above turned into a dense and heavy mass. As soon as my skis sunk down, I lost control and took a fall.

I'm beginning to think that the solution to skiing snow of that kind is related to weighting and un-weighting, and timing your movements, but then we return to fundamentals....

Back to the piste to practice

Thanks again,

Bruno

Yep Bruno, with the turn mechanics you showed in your video, you would definitely have found the skiing difficult in deep dense snow. Weighting and unweighting, what we in the US would refer to as regulation of the magnitude of pressure caused by the ski/snow interface, is part of the package, but the upper body rotation is a big piece of it. Upper body rotation tends to turn the ski all at once in the middle of the turn, but then there is no or little rotation in the finish of the turn; thus the skis go straight. And they don't start turning again until you wind the upper body up again going the other direction. In dense deep snow, it is also really difficult to twist the skis around; a better strategy is to tip them on edge, bend them, and let the bent shape turn the ski. Hence my post above.

If you want to have mastery in the off-piste, a lot of work will need to be put in on the piste. Find a good coach and outline your objectives. Make a plan. It will require a time, effort, and likely money.

Good luck!

Mike

 

[Chris V.]

I recently had some very nice improvements in my skiing that came to me in a rather strange way. ...I hurt my lower back which made bending at the waist very painful. ...So I started skiing around some easy slopes like a robot keeping nice and tall.

Talk about motivation!