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New England Wachusett Mountain - Abruptly ends season pass sales.

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Mark1975

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I had a job where I went to competitive mfg plants, watched trucks in/out over a fixed time, and took photos of the raw material silos to estimate mfg capacity as a proxy to get mfg costs and eventually price. :eek:
Haha I have heard that before. My dad was a Manufacturing Engineer. They were always trying to figure out competitors cost structure and hiding their own. To the point they would come up with cover operations to fake out their competitors making it look like their cost were higher or lower depending on what they were trying to hide. My dad was a former Naval Intelligence officer (got a degree in Mechanical Engineering before joining the Navy for 12 years), so he loved the gaming involved. One year, they caught an employee from a competitor who got a job with their company. Basically an industrial spy. When his cover was blown, they informed the company police. My dad worked at a large industrial complex that had their own police force. The company police removed the guy, making sure to bang him off every piece of equipment and wall on the way out, and tossed him into the parking lot outside the entrance fence. The guy then threatened to call the police for being ruffed up. The company police said "Go ahead, we are the police, Still want to file a complaint?" :roflmao:
 

bbbradley

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If the new higher priced, 1/3 day ticket is the new normal at Wachusett they lost my family's business.
 

scott43

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A little anecdote on Maple Leaf tickets from a fan site...

Supply and Demand​


If Leafs tickets cost too much, attendance would fall. Here’s the thing, though; that definitely isn’t the case. In every year that the Leafs have been in the Air Canada Centre, their average attendance has been over 100% capacity (standing room and luxury suites tipping them over the total). You often hear that tickets are too expensive for “the real fan”, but if the prices were to drop, the same balance of long-time holders, corporate interests, and scalpers looking to flip would just save money that they’re already spending. It wouldn’t add to the fan market – it would literally make the rich get richer.


Fans will often point to the “end of the sell-out streak” as proof that there’s a declining interest, but Toronto’s occasional no sell-out comes from the fact that they tend to release tickets that were promised to players families and sponsors and unclaimed by game day. It’s actually easier in Toronto to pick up a ticket two hours before the game than it is two months before. That’s not because the interest is dying, it’s because the Leafs found a way to make an extra few thousand dollars a night at the sacrifice of not having a “We’ve sold out this many games in a row” footnote on Page 116, Paragraph 4, Appendix E of your Media Guide.
 

James

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I ski at Wachusett a lot because I live :15 from there. I have a great time there. However Sunapee is a bigger mountain and definitely has better terrain.
Thanks for the sanity. Also significantly more north. Sunapee several times. It’s got the nice mini Lake Tahoe vista.

Next up: Deerfield is “just as good” as Sunapee.
 

dovski

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In past years, they sold as many passes as possible. No cutoff date, no maximum number. They would even sell you a pass the last week of the season if you wanted to buy one. I think any passes sold after some date in March were actually for the next season, but you could use them until they closed. Generally the last week of March or the first week of April. That was more than fair.

I spoke again with the WMRT coach friend I know, and he had something interesting to add. He is hearing that this is the new "norm" regardless of Covid. He said the mountain made a huge profit off of limiting pass sales and instituting the $68 session ticket. This is really not a half day ticket, but a quarter day ticket because the Gold pass includes all day and all evening skiing. Plus there is the additional $18 charge if you need to switch pre-paid sessions. He told me they are also limiting all seasonal programs outside the race team to a 3.5 hr session, but the seasonal cost will be the same as the previous full day seasonal programs.

Well, if they can pull this off after Covid is gone or reduced to just a bad cold, more power to them. You can count me out from any ski area that tries this operating model. Plenty of other ski areas in New England. I don't see how this helps the season pass holders. The people who buy the session tickets are going to jam the lift lines because they know they must get in as many runs in as possible in 3 hours to justify the cost of the session ticket. Season pass holders might have a little reprieve as one session leaves and the next arrives, but the next session is going to have the same mindset: Get as many runs in as possible in 3 hours. It will never end. Buying your season pass earlier will not help either if they have a "top secret" limited number of passes to sell. They will just sell out faster, then those who "missed" will be forced to buy the session tickets, then jam up the lift lines for the "lucky" ones who bought the season passes. :nono:
Many resorts used to sell passes gradually increasing the price over the course of the year, until they reached a point where they could sell a cheaper spring pass. My local resort used to let you ski for the last two months of the current season if you bought next seasons pass in March, their way to attract more skiers to the hill after their ski school ran its course and of course sell more passes. All that changed with Covid. We were lucky we bought early last season as they suspended pass sales and then limited them when they reopened selling out in a day. Lots of people did not get passes full stop. This season is a little better but if you did not buy super early (i.e. April) you are paying significantly more for your passes.

Please don't take this the wrong way but your friend left things to the last minute and missed out. That is the new norm with covid. As for the session price cost, I personally would never pay that, but I also almost never buy tickets at the window because I think those prices are just as crazy, instead I plan in advance and have a season pass and my local and a mountain collective pass for my trips! Day tickets and session tickets are expensive, but that is the norm these days so nothing shocking about these crazy high prices and really not much to complain about other than poor planning on your friends part.
 
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Mark1975

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If the new higher priced, 1/3 day ticket is the new normal at Wachusett they lost my family's business.
That is going to be the key on how this goes in the future. If they lose your business and some others (less volume), but make a higher profit on those still willing to ski there, then they really didn't lose your business from a revenue point of view. In fact, their total revenue may be in fact much higher with this new norm than their long standing traditional mode of operation. The owners of Wachusett also own Polar Beverages. Polar in the past few years has gone away from traditional, low priced soda, to more "trendy" drinks that sell at a much higher price than a 99 cent 1 liter bottle of everyday soda. Doesn't cost much more (if any) to bottle a trendy drink, but the profit per unit is much higher. The same reason Ford would rather sell you a $100,000 dollar F150 than a $20,000 econobox. I remember reading an article a few years ago in the Worcester Telegram that the Crowley's view the operation at Wachusett the same as they view the operation at Polar. The article stated at Polar, they are trying to maximize the unit revenue of every bottle or can going through the plant. The article stated they see the operation at Wachusett the same way. It may turn out in the big picture that if this new "norm" is really the new norm, it was planned all along. Covid was just a useful reason to implement it now. In the past decade or so, they eliminated child care on the mountain, eliminated staying open later in the evening in the late season, then eliminated staying open later into the evening both early season and late season. I just saw on their website that during peak season, they state they will start closing at 9:30 instead of the long standing 10 pm. Now, if what employees are telling me is true about the reduction in hours of seasonal programs (but not the cost), this is another trend along the same lines. Instead of paying instructors for a full day of teaching a seasonal program, they only have to pay them 3.5 hours, but are collecting the same revenue from the participants. Higher profit per unit...just like at the Polar factory. You are nothing but a can of soda going down the assembly line. LOL :ogbiggrin:
 

dovski

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If the new higher priced, 1/3 day ticket is the new normal at Wachusett they lost my family's business.
The real issue here is the cost of a daily lift ticket at most US resorts. A half day or session is just a subset of that. Personally my family actively plans our skiing and ski trips for the next season as the current one is wrapping up. Based on that we know which passes to buy. Without a season pass and some sort of multi resort pass the cost of a ski trip becomes outrageous. The interesting thing is that if you go north of the border (Canada) or to Europe this is generally not the case. Yes there are exceptions but those are generally Vail resorts like Whistler :eek: Simply put if you want to ski affordably in the US you have to plan in advance and that means buying season passes and potentially a combination of passes if you plan on skiing several resorts.

Here is some simple math for you my Summit at Snoqualmie Season Pass was about $600 this year, that is close to double what I used to pay 5 years back, but a day pass at Snoqualmie (Alpental) is over $100. This pass also gets me 3 days at Big Sky which was $165/day last year and I am sure will be more this year. I will get in at least 20 days at Alpental and another 4-5 at Big Sky so money well spent. This pass is also getting me 20% off my hotel in Big Sky.

I also have a Mountain Collective Pass which cost about $450 though. This pass will get me 2 days at Big Sky, 2 at Alta, 2 at Snowbird, 3 at Sunshine, and 2 at Lake Louise. Once I use up my free days all additional days are 50% off. This pass is also getting me 40% off my hotel in Banff. We may also try to squeeze in a trip to Sun Peaks if we can find the time and that is also on the Mountain Collective Pass this year :)

Long story short without these passes there is no way my family and I could afford these ski trips. Planning ahead is saving us thousands of $$ on both lift tickets and accommodations, but this only works if you buy and book early.
 

skiki

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Another Wachusett skier here. In the past season passes would be available at pre-season prices until just after the Boston Ski Show in early November. I think there were two different dates after that when prices would go up until they were full price. Also, if you purchased through a group the prices went up a little later. After Feb. break you could already buy next season's pass, and start using it already. And if you decided to buy a pass after a day of skiing on a day ticket, they would even apply the cost of your day ticket to the pass. That doesn't seem greedy to me. As far as window prices go, the prices aren't always the full price shown on the site. Early and late season are generally lower.

This past season of course everything was different. When they limited passes it caught many people off guard. But this year it shouldn't have come as a surprise, considering we have no idea what the season will be like, and considering that passes were limited last year. I believe many passes were already sold out in July, because it was widely known that they sold out last year and people didn't want to risk it. For anyone thinking of buying a Gold Pass in early August, seeing that many of the other pass types were no longer available should have been a hint to buy sooner rather than later.

I believe they are still trying to figure out what "capacity" will be for this season. They do have a wait list you can put yourself on in case they open pass sales up again. Or there are other ways to get a pass. I was chatting with an instructor on the lift one day, only to find out that the reason she took the instructor training course and signed on was because passes had sold out.
 
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Mark1975

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The real issue here is the cost of a daily lift ticket at most US resorts. A half day or session is just a subset of that. Personally my family actively plans our skiing and ski trips for the next season as the current one is wrapping up. Based on that we know which passes to buy. Without a season pass and some sort of multi resort pass the cost of a ski trip becomes outrageous. The interesting thing is that if you go north of the border (Canada) or to Europe this is generally not the case. Yes there are exceptions but those are generally Vail resorts like Whistler :eek:
This is an excellent point that I have experienced first hand. Back when I was actively coaching, I was working for an academy as a weekend coach. I had the chance one season to go with the FIS team to Europe as they needed some extra help. Since I had no experience with FIS in Europe, I took a 2 week vacation from my full time job and jumped at the chance. All the FIS races were held at what I call more off the beaten path ski areas that had lower cost structure than the big tourist areas. I learned two things: 1) The kids in Europe consistently train and race on very difficult terrain. We have nothing comparable in North America. The depth of talent on the regular European FIS (not Europa Cup) teams is amazing. But that is a story for another thread. 2) The cost of a lift ticket or pass at some of these ski areas was incredibly low. Like what we were paying in the U.S. in the late 1980's early 1990's low. I know there are more expensive areas in Europe, but I think (at least when I was over there at that time), the general population has a selection of ski areas with some amazing on-trail and off-piste terrain at very reasonable prices. It seems to me that skiing in the U.S. has dropped the idea of it being an winter outdoor activity and now it is something more akin to a trip to Disney World with snow. Of course, this may be very well what the majority of U.S. skiers expect and are willing to pay for. It is not what I expect. I go to ski areas to actually ski and get the outdoor time. I am lucky enough to have an occupation that allows me a very nice lifestyle. But I also agree with bbbradley. I am not going to throw good money after bad, and that includes skiing. If the cost structure becomes excessive, then I will just find something else to do in the winter. Hopefully not all ski areas adopt this ski by the hour system in the future.
 
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Mark1975

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Another Wachusett skier here. In the past season passes would be available at pre-season prices until just after the Boston Ski Show in early November. I think there were two different dates after that when prices would go up until they were full price. Also, if you purchased through a group the prices went up a little later. After Feb. break you could already buy next season's pass, and start using it already. And if you decided to buy a pass after a day of skiing on a day ticket, they would even apply the cost of your day ticket to the pass. That doesn't seem greedy to me. As far as window prices go, the prices aren't always the full price shown on the site. Early and late season are generally lower.

This past season of course everything was different. When they limited passes it caught many people off guard. But this year it shouldn't have come as a surprise, considering we have no idea what the season will be like, and considering that passes were limited last year. I believe many passes were already sold out in July, because it was widely known that they sold out last year and people didn't want to risk it. For anyone thinking of buying a Gold Pass in early August, seeing that many of the other pass types were no longer available should have been a hint to buy sooner rather than later.

I believe they are still trying to figure out what "capacity" will be for this season. They do have a wait list you can put yourself on in case they open pass sales up again. Or there are other ways to get a pass. I was chatting with an instructor on the lift one day, only to find out that the reason she took the instructor training course and signed on was because passes had sold out.
All that is very true. I think the question is will they continue this in the future because of the increased revenue stream? Phil mentioned that some ski areas in PA also have adopted something similar prior to Covid. I don't ski there presently, but I have many contacts there from working in the industry. All have indicated they are hearing this is the new operating plan for the future. Steve mentioned that the lift lines are bad even mid-week, something that never happened in the past. I think it could very well be due to the session ticket idea that would force people to get in as many runs in as possible because they no longer can buy a full day or full night ticket. I get Wachusett is making way more revenue charging $68 for a 3.5 hour session than charging $68 for a full day mid-week all day ticket. What was the price for a full day mid-week ticket prior to this new system? Was it even $68? If this is continued for future seasons, I don't see how this enhances the ski experience for the session ticket buyers or the season pass holders. Will other areas see this as a way to increase revenues in the future? That would totally suck.

On a side note, hearing that you were chatting with an instructor that only became an instructor to get a free pass is disturbing. As a long time certified USSA and PSIA member, I am seeing far too much of this recently both in coaching and instructing. Really makes you question the hiring practices of ski areas that allow this to happen. :nono:
 
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James

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On a side note, hearing that you were chatting with an instructor that only became an instructor to get a free pass is disturbing. As a long time certified USSA and PSIA member, I am seeing far too much of this recently both in coaching and instructing. Really makes you question the hiring practices of ski areas that allow this to happen.
Is this that much different than 20 yrs ago? Or more.
 
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Mark1975

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One of the ski resorts in Australia, Thredbo (not a Vail resort), nearly doubled the price of its season passes for the season. Early bird went from A$850 to A$1650. Also announced sale of restricted number as there were Govt mandated capacity restraints and had no trouble getting sales - that resort has an army of well heeled devotees.

It is an example of maximizing revenue in the circumstances (capacity restraints) but my guess is that the lesson that demand was not hugely affected by price will spill over into more normal, unrestrained years. I'll bet other resorts in high demand will also learn that lesson.



Can't help thinking that Rachel is a little over-countered in the upper body. Also needs to get out of that right turn before the imminent collision with an out of control Scotty!


1631129239873.png

Haha just looked at this. Scotty is the least of her problems. Countering with the upper body, but stiff hips. Not enough flexing in the knees. Completely locked out outside leg. Bending over at the waist. Poor edging angles. Outside hand behind her hips. At least she is smiling for the camera. The funny thing is she would be a standout skier there. Scotty is the majority there.
 
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Mark1975

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Is this that much different than 20 yrs ago? Or more.
Sure, that was always present. I think it is worse now. A big problem in USSA for sure. I have instructor friends that are noticing it more on the ski school side. I don't know if it is because it is a way to get a free pass, or a lack of work ethic and pride when these people take the job.
 
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James

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I remain somewhat unconvinced.
However, it may be more about training, and the reduction in over the last two decades. So that’s also the opportunity to instill some sort of pride of work.
I would say most people go in as a way to keep skiing and or get passes for their kids or spouse. I don’t think that’s changed much.
 

bbbradley

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I get Wachusett is making way more revenue charging $68 for a 3.5 hour session than charging $68 for a full day mid-week all day ticket. What was the price for a full day mid-week ticket prior to this new system? Was it even $68? If this is continued for future seasons, I don't see how this enhances the ski experience for the session ticket buyers or the season pass holders. Will other areas see this as a way to increase revenues in the future? That would totally suck.

The days I skied there the previous year, I never paid more than ~$50 for a midweek, full-day ticket.

Remember, while they absolutely juiced the ticket rates, they lost essentially all of their food and beverage sales, lessons revenues were reduced, race programs capped at lower limits, etc. I don't like their new pricing model, but I can't say if they had a better year financially or not (revenue and profitability) than previous seasons.
 
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Mark1975

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I remain somewhat unconvinced.
However, it may be more about training, and the reduction in over the last two decades. So that’s also the opportunity to instill some sort of pride of work.
I would say most people go in as a way to keep skiing and or get passes for their kids or spouse. I don’t think that’s changed much.
Totally agree about the reduction of staff training. That is a huge problem. However, one of my instructor friends is one of the staff trainers at a ski area in NH. He has told me that even when they offer staff training only the long time vets show up. The new hires are a no show with every excuse in the book why they didn't show up. He thinks they are too busy skiing with their free season pass. :ogbiggrin:
 
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Mark1975

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The days I skied there the previous year, I never paid more than ~$50 for a midweek, full-day ticket.

Remember, while they absolutely juiced the ticket rates, they lost essentially all of their food and beverage sales, lessons revenues were reduced, race programs capped at lower limits, etc. I don't like their new pricing model, but I can't say if they had a better year financially or not (revenue and profitability) than previous seasons.
Will be interesting to see if they keep the juiced ticket prices the same when they get full revenue back from all the other items. I have a feeling if the market will take it, this is going forward to future seasons. No business is going to reduce their revenue stream if they can get away with it.
 

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On a side note, hearing that you were chatting with an instructor that only became an instructor to get a free pass is disturbing
In all fairness to the instructor, that was only part of the story. Her husband had been an instructor there for many years, so she knew what she was getting herself into. (He had opted out of teaching last year as he was in a higher risk category.) I believe she was retired, so was available mid-week for all of the pandemic newbies flocking to the hill. I often saw her out in the morning instructor clinics, which I would say shows some commitment to the job, and not just treating it as a free lift ticket. I just chose that as an example for another way to get a pass at Wawa, but not something I would think many people would actually do. When you put it in context of time commitment vs. dollar cost for a pass there, it really doesn't make sense. You can also get a free pass for volunteering 4 hours per week as Mountain host (one of the orange coated people who greet you.) A friend of mine signed up near the end of the season. She would hit the slopes in the morning, and then start her volunteer shift in the afternoon when the school kids started to arrive.
 
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Mark1975

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In all fairness to the instructor, that was only part of the story. Her husband had been an instructor there for many years, so she knew what she was getting herself into. (He had opted out of teaching last year as he was in a higher risk category.) I believe she was retired, so was available mid-week for all of the pandemic newbies flocking to the hill. I often saw her out in the morning instructor clinics, which I would say shows some commitment to the job, and not just treating it as a free lift ticket. I just chose that as an example for another way to get a pass at Wawa, but not something I would think many people would actually do. When you put it in context of time commitment vs. dollar cost for a pass there, it really doesn't make sense. You can also get a free pass for volunteering 4 hours per week as Mountain host (one of the orange coated people who greet you.) A friend of mine signed up near the end of the season. She would hit the slopes in the morning, and then start her volunteer shift in the afternoon when the school kids started to arrive.
Ok, that is good to know about her situation.
 

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