Warmer Midlayer?

[ELDoane]

My go to piece for the longest time was a Patagucci Nano Air Hoody. This year, the fabric piling reached critical mass and my local store talked me into swapping it out for a new one via warranty. Generous, but a big mistake. The new Nano Air is markedly thinner and colder than the older edition. Patagonia did it on purpose to make it better for more active pursuits, but I'm not a fan. It's OK on uphill skins, but it sucks on lift served days when it's blowing 20+ MPH and 0 degrees.

What's out there that's warmer, still breathes, and isn't fleece? The Nano Air will stay in the rotation for warm days, but I need something to get through days where there's not a high and a low temp, but a low and a really, really low. Bonus points for higher wind resistance when worn on it's own. I also wear a very air permeable shell (Flylow Lab Coat) so a little extra wind resistance is welcome on the very blustery days.

 

[AmyPJ]

ArcTeryx Atom AR. FWIW most of the brands will have two or even three different weights of mid-layers. You might talk to the sales person at Patagonia and ask what would be comparable in today's jackets. Might be the nano puff? Not sure.

 

[Jersey Skier]

My go to piece for the longest time was a Patagucci Nano Air Hoody. This year, the fabric piling reached critical mass and my local store talked me into swapping it out for a new one via warranty. Generous, but a big mistake. The new Nano Air is markedly thinner and colder than the older edition. Patagonia did it on purpose to make it better for more active pursuits, but I'm not a fan. It's OK on uphill skins, but it sucks on lift served days when it's blowing 20+ MPH and 0 degrees.

What's out there that's warmer, still breathes, and isn't fleece? The Nano Air will stay in the rotation for warm days, but I need something to get through days where there's not a high and a low temp, but a low and a really, really low. Bonus points for higher wind resistance when worn on it's own. I also wear a very air permeable shell (Flylow Lab Coat) so a little extra wind resistance is welcome on the very blustery days.

When I saw the title I came to say get a Nano Air. But I have two of the older ones like you. Now I know to treat those with care as they are my most versatile mid layers. No more shoveling in mine. Skiing only for now on. Let us know what you find that is comparable.

 

[GB_Ski]

I use the patagonia down sweater for really cold days since I won't sweat much. Keeps me cool on the chair and warm if I ski hard and pretty windproof.

 

[BLiP]

I love my Atom AR. It is seriously warm. But I wouldn’t describe it as breathable. The Atom LT will be significantly more breathable because of its fleece side panels, but at the cost of some warmth. The Proton is even more breathable, but not particularly warm at all without smart layering.

It sounds like the OP is really looking for a mid for cold lift served days, though. In that case, the Atom AR would be perfect. That is what I use it for and I have no complaints. I also use it as an around-town jacket for days below 40 and it has great wind resistance (and some dwr) on its own.

Once you take the plunge into the world of Arc’teryx and get over the cost, you won’t be disappointed.

 

[cantunamunch]

What's out there that's warmer, still breathes, and isn't fleece?

Talking of such things have any of you tried Strafe's aerogel midlayer, I think it's called aero insulator?

 

[dbostedo]

Talking of such things have any of you tried Strafe's aerogel midlayer, I think it's called aero insulator?

Interesting... I was hoping it was really fully aerogel lined somehow. But it's not... instead:

"...the PrimaLoft® Gold insulation with Cross-Core™ infuses NASA-developed aerogel particles (composed of 95% air) into the fibers..."

I wonder how much is there and how much they actually help. I like PrimaLoft generally speaking... this press release says 12% better.

PrimaLoft Expands Use of its High Performance PrimaLoft® Cross Core™ Technology with Increased Emphasis on Sustainability - Primaloft

LATHAM, N.Y. (January, 2021) — PrimaLoft, Inc., a global leader in advanced material technology, is increasing the use of post-consumer recycled content in its high-performance PrimaLoft® Cross Core™ Series, which now includes a stretch version for freedom of movement. The Cross Core™ platform...

www.primaloft.com

 

[cantunamunch]

Interesting... I was hoping it was really fully aerogel lined somehow. But it's not... instead:

Yeh, I know. FWIW, the affordable aerogels I've played with were too brittle for any sort of long-term-wearable. So...baby steps.

You may not remember, but OROS had some foam-embedded aerogels back around 2016 or so. Not sure what they do now. https://www.orosapparel.com/

 

[Uncle-A]

There is another mid layer thread here somewhere, you may want to try and find it to see how it turned out. Also one about wanting a little warm mid layer or about being a little cold on the chair, but not when skiing or something like that.
My mid-layer is an Eddie Bauer down sweater. It was reasonably priced and can be worn by itself on warmer days.

 

[tch]

I know you said no fleece, but... I find that a good softshell jacket makes the very best mid-layer. Warm, air- and water-resistant, fairly breathable, does not pack under over-layers, and can be worn alone on warm days.
Feel free to dismiss, but my own solution.

 

[ARL67]

I have a "Norrona Lofoten Super Lightweight Down Jacket" as my warmest mid-layer. It has 850 down, is super-warm, thin, and weighs next to nothing. I'm not sure if it is in the current Norrona line-up , but consider a quality down shirt as well.

 

[ELDoane]

It sounds like the OP is really looking for a mid for cold lift served days, though. In that case, the Atom AR would be perfect.

Yep, that's exactly the plan. I'm covered with appropriate gear for all but the single digits and below, particularly when the sustained wind exceeds 20 MPH. So, basically, every month but August on Jay Peak.

Once you take the plunge into the world of Arc’teryx and get over the cost, you won’t be disappointed.

Oh, but that cost. I really have a hard time with it, particularly when I add in my personal displeasure at the ridiculous prices they stick on their LEAF gear we buy on military contract. The combination has made me rather annoyed with them as a brand. At least when OR started charging astronomical costs for Berry amendment compliant cold weather tactical gear they had the decency to cut qualified individuals a pro deal to buy their own. The contract prices were nuts, and still are, but that's another story. The $200 hammer is back as a down jacket.

 

[Analisa]

Let's start with the NanoAir's purpose, and then pull direct or close competitors. The NanoAir is designed for really active pursuits - breathability is prioritized over weather resistance or durability. It's made for things like skiing, ice climbing, glacier travel where you'll likely be wearing it under a shell. In that case, there's no reason to make a super protective face fabric. The jacket has always used 60gsm (grams per square meter) full range insulation. but it's totally possible that Toray has changed that over time to where your new one feels less warm.

The closest match is the Arcteryx Proton. It's 80gsm of Air Permeable Coreloft Compact insulation in the hood and 60gsm Compact Coreloft in the body (for the hooded version, a hoodless jacket is also available).

The Arcteryx Atom LT, North Face Thermoball, Patagonia NanoPuff are all 60gsm jackets that are more "all-arounders." Their face fabrics are tighter wovens that'll feel a little warmer, but also potentially a little clammier, since they hold a bit more air in. Most brands use Primaloft Gold, but Arc uses Coreloft Compact. Most other brands will have something in this category (MHW and LLBean are two that come to mind). Pricing really differentiates on the quality of the face fabric and the number/complexity of stitches that allow the garment to move with you. For more fill, look to the Orvis Pro Insulated Hoodie or Arcteryx Atom AR. The Rab Xenair line also comes to mind since they have 3 different weights and they do a good job with body mapping where insulation is lighter through the pits and side body for better temperature regulation. Arcteryx does a lot of that design too. Cheaper options just take a blanket 360 approach. Rab also uses Pertex Quantum Air, which is pretty advanced in terms of balancing breathe, durability, and weather resistance.

And unless you're bundling up on synthetics to the point it's getting really bulky, absolutely skip down. Great insulator for sleeping bags, lunch break layers, low-output activities or super cold climates, but skiing typically isn't the right use case for down. If you need any help narrowing down between a few options, happy to walk through fiber type, weave structure, pattern design and see if there's some helpful nuggets to help you decide.

 

[AtleB]

You could also consider a warmer base layer. I’m a huge fan of the mesh/wool combos.

 

[bbqd]

I bought an Arcteryx Proton LT and use this as my mid layer in Lake Tahoe on cold days (20's F). My base is a 250 weight merino and my shell is 3 layer and uninsulated. I think I would need a warmer midlayer in single digit or lower temps, which are rare for where I ski. I really like the Proton LT, and can wear it without the shell on sunny days.

 

[ELDoane]

Did a little shopping around today with little luck. Most of the synthetics are all about the same and going to a 700-800 fill down jacket is overkill. I was intrigued by HH's Lifaloft stuff, but I'm not fully sold at this point. I was less than impressed with the crinkly face fabric. The entirely-honest-I'm sure salesman swears it'll be warmer than the Nano, but I have my doubts.

@Analisa - I had the '15 version of the Nano. Not sure what they tweaked going forward but they did turn down the warmth factor somehow, even if they stuck with the same weight insulation. The Patagonia rep wasn't very clear with me on what they did, but did own up to it being a cooler version than what I had. For uphill travel and climbing, good to go. But, lower output pursuits in colder, higher wind situations are finding it wanting. I've got a call out to the Rab guys, I might give their stuff a whirl.

Some of this is shell choice. My Flylow Lab Coat (Polartec Neoshell version) is admittedly thin and more wind/cold permeable than other shells. But, I can't let go of the breathability.

For now I'm solving this by just tossing on the waffle knit fleece baselayer over the silkies, but I prefer a thin baselayer + better midlayer solution.

 

[Uncle-A]

I have a "Norrona Lofoten Super Lightweight Down Jacket" as my warmest mid-layer. It has 850 down, is super-warm, thin, and weighs next to nothing. I'm not sure if it is in the current Norrona line-up , but consider a quality down shirt as well.

A 850 down fill is a very high fill, no wonder it is super warm.

 

[tch]

And unless you're bundling up on synthetics to the point it's getting really bulky, absolutely skip down. Great insulator for sleeping bags, lunch break layers, low-output activities or super cold climates, but skiing typically isn't the right use case for down. If you need any help narrowing down between a few options, happy to walk through fiber type, weave structure, pattern design and see if there's some helpful nuggets to help you decide.

Truth.

 

[Analisa]

@ELDoane - oh, totally. Weight's usually the best base point, but face fabric and change in how the synthetic is engineered could totally explain it. Definitely see how the shell + midlayer leave some warmth to be desired. Both really prioritize breathability and air permeability. I think a really wind resistant face makes a lot of sense (like the Rab. I think the Kor Strata is also Pertex, and the Atom's fairly solid here too). Lifaloft is a branded Primaloft product, but I hate when brands obscure whether it stacks up against black, silver, or gold. It's 80gsm and uses mostly polypropylene compared to the basic primaloft polyester fibers. Face fabric is a basic nylon. There's a lot you can't tell on paper, but the patterning is super boxy and low-investment compared to the seaming and patterning on some of the other brands. (Seams right on top of the shoulders for a layer you'd likely wear with a pack is a big cost-cutting flag).

Definitely the way to go on base layers. Their only job is to wick and dry, which is easiest when the fabric's thin. Insulation layers unsurprisingly insulate better than base layers can manage to do.

 

[Scrundy]

I been using Khul Thor 1/4 zip for years and love them, everyone I’ve turned onto them concur. I wouldn’t call them wind proof but for warmth, comfort, style and price they are hard to beat.