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What does proper fit of the boot cuff feel like?

LiquidFeet

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I've seen lots of threads about how tight buckles should be and how the boot should feel overall, but I can't find anything that says what the fit of the cuff should feel like. Tight as bearable? Just enough to keep from falling forward or backward? Somewhere in between? ....?
Back to the original question...

The cuff encircles the lower leg just above the ankle bones, and goes upward to encircle the leg where it gets thicker due to the calf muscles.

Critical to cuff fit is the snugness of the cuff around both parts of the lower leg, the thin part of the leg down below and the thicker part up above.

The cuff should be just as snug around the thin lower leg as it is up top. This matching snugness is important because it equally distributes the forward pressures that naturally happen at the shin-tongue interface as the turn develops. Those forward pressures are critical to ski control and comfort.

You don't want the top to be snug and the bottom to be loose; all the pressure will be felt at the top of the tongue and your shin will get bruised up there.

On the other hand, you don't want the top of the cuff to be looser than the bottom. Then your leg will swing forward and back inside the cuff at its top, banging the shin into the tongue up there. You'll get a worse bruise if this is happening. It's called "shin-bang."

A cuff that is loose in any way that allows the lower leg to tilt fore-aft inside it without moving the cuff itself is a bad idea. You need to maintain snug cuff-contact all the way around the lower leg, bottom of cuff to its top, in order not only to avoid painful bruising, but to better control the ski beneath.

If you can't get the lower part of the cuff snug enough, there are aftermarket inserts you can buy and put over the lower part of the tongue. Look at the Eliminator Tongue, for instance.

All thoughts about whether to use Booster straps or not, and where to buckle them, should take into account the goal of creating equal snugness all around and up and down the lower leg.

The boot is the ski's "handle." Your foot and lower leg control the handle, and the handle controls the ski. You can develop good control of the ski if the foot and lower leg fit snugly into the entire boot. So many skiers have a loose connection between the foot and the lower leg and the boot. They don't realize many of their skiing problems are due to poor boot fit.
 
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Bill R

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So, @Bill R ... with all this talk about straps, when you asked about cuffs, are you getting the info you want?

To paraphrase Yogi Berra "they gave me information, which is as good as an answer" :\ogsmile



Exploring the nuances of booster straps and dual straps will have to be a future project. One change at a time! :geek:

a suggestion for cuff fit, buckle the boot without using the strap, make it tight enough so that when you flex forward that the back of the liner doesn't come away from your calf more than a quarter of an inch. Next tighten the boot strap and that should just about eliminate the quarter of an inch when flexing the boot. It might cause a little gap between the liner and the cuff but very little, less than a quarter of an inch.

You need to maintain snug cuff-contact all the way around the lower leg, bottom of cuff to its top, in order not only to avoid painful bruising, but to better control the ski beneath.

I've tightened the buckles a couple of notches. I still have more like 3/8" to a 1/2" gap when I flex forward. I don't ride on the cuffs and I've never had a problem with shin bang in spite of the gap. The Hawx liners are fairly tall, so maybe this amount of gap is ok?

As far as I can tell, I've got consistent cuff contact from bottom to top.

I tried some drills yesterday and then skied some familiar terrain and everything seemed as good or better than before the change, with the exception of pivot slips. For some reason I'm sliding forward when side slipping, so instead of a straight line down the fall line my pivot slip leaves an S shape. I'll have to see if I can find an adjustment in my side slip movements to counterbalance the change in the boot.

Thanks to all for the replies.
 

Uncle-A

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To paraphrase Yogi Berra "they gave me information, which is as good as an answer" :\ogsmile



Exploring the nuances of booster straps and dual straps will have to be a future project. One change at a time! :geek:





I've tightened the buckles a couple of notches. I still have more like 3/8" to a 1/2" gap when I flex forward. I don't ride on the cuffs and I've never had a problem with shin bang in spite of the gap. The Hawx liners are fairly tall, so maybe this amount of gap is ok?

As far as I can tell, I've got consistent cuff contact from bottom to top.

I tried some drills yesterday and then skied some familiar terrain and everything seemed as good or better than before the change, with the exception of pivot slips. For some reason I'm sliding forward when side slipping, so instead of a straight line down the fall line my pivot slip leaves an S shape. I'll have to see if I can find an adjustment in my side slip movements to counterbalance the change in the boot.

Thanks to all for the replies.
I don't remember if you said what stiffness your boot is, 3/8 to a 1/2 inch seems like a lot, could you need a stiffer boot or you are stronger then you think? As you tightened the top buckle a notch did the boot strap get tighter as well?
 

EricG

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@Bill R - You might want to give Rollie Fletcher a ring, he works in one of the shops in Boise. He can give you a hands on boot fit opinion that it’s difficult to see over the web.
 
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Bill R

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@Uncle-A The Hawx is a 120 flex. I'm 6' and 200 lbs. Not an aggressive skier, mostly ski groomers and the occasional off-piste alternate route or shortcut.

When I tightened the buckle I also tightened the strap, but I was not able to use the strap to get more leverage and make the boot even tighter.
 
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Bill R

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My wife, and ski partner, came down with appendicitis and had to have an appendectomy, so I had a couple of weeks skiing alone. I got the cuff fairly tight (I thought) by re-buckling a couple of times during one of the first of these days. I also put the boot spoilers in to take up some space. I found I was picking some paths I would normally avoid, so it was all a definite improvement.

At @EricG’s suggestion I went back to the bootfitter who had done my insoles years ago and got his recommendation about the cuffs. He tweaked the insole in one boot and cranked the buckles down tighter on both and I tried that out. Went back for a second pass at tweaking one insole for better balance and he also punched out a spot near the ankle that had been getting sore over the last couple of months, probably due to the liners getting close to the end of their life.

Bottom line is that, given that I’m in a good shell for the shape of my foot and I’m in the right size, tighter buckles give me a firmer hold and more control than I realized I could get when I asked the question.

Thanks to all for the help and advice.
 

bbinder

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I "solved" the Booster strap in vs. out debate for myself long ago when I figured out that a lengthwise slit cut across the center of the "interior" strap of the Booster would allow me to place the top half of the Booster over the top of my liner/tongue and the bottom half over the front of the shell. Best of both worlds...

Years later we saw the birth of the Atomic Dual strap and the Nordica Power Driver, both of which effectively split the power strap duties between pressing against the liner and the shell cuff.
Color me dense: I am having trouble picturing this.
 

KingGrump

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Color me dense: I am having trouble picturing this.

The new Atomic dual strap.
1648596914499.png


A pretty clear description of the dual strap in the Blister podcast on this web page at 1:11:41.

@Noodler was describing a DYI version.
 
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Bill R

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Patriot Tru-Strap (formerly Patriot Dual Strap)

Concentric straps, outer can stretch, inner is non-stretch.

1648661585387.png
 

Yepow

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@Uncle-A The Hawx is a 120 flex. I'm 6' and 200 lbs. Not an aggressive skier, mostly ski groomers and the occasional off-piste alternate route or shortcut.

When I tightened the buckle I also tightened the strap, but I was not able to use the strap to get more leverage and make the boot even tighter.
I have the same or very similar boots; the Hawx in 120 flex, 5'10 192lb. Similar skiing. Similar slop. I think I need to read carefully above and get a booster strap before 2 weeks from now.
 

cantunamunch

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I have the same or very similar boots; the Hawx in 120 flex, 5'10 192lb. Similar skiing. Similar slop. I think I need to read carefully above and get a booster strap before 2 weeks from now.

When I read @Bill R's post, I thought 'liner packout'.

If you have that level of slop, a Booster type strap is a band-aid. A comfortable band-aid perhaps, but a temporary cover up nonetheless.
 

Yepow

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When I read @Bill R's post, I thought 'liner packout'.

If you have that level of slop, a Booster type strap is a band-aid. A comfortable band-aid perhaps, but a temporary cover up nonetheless
So I found in my 80-days 100 flex Solomon boots that at the end of the day I was cranking both of the top 2 buckles, more and more. I thought my liner was getting packed out, I went in to talk about getting a new liner, and at that point (since I perhaps with some hubris thought I was ready for a stiffer boot, was bending the 100 flex boot in the shop rather significantly just with weight) with the bootfitter's approval moved to a stiffer boot, Atomic Hawx 120. It definitely is stiffer now--feels almost too stiff when it's very cold, and I've had comments that it looks like my ankles aren't very active in my videos.

Been skiing on them for 15 days now, had them heat molded (so much better than the first few days)... I still find that I can go up 1-2 full buckle notches over the course of the day, and until I get to that maximum tightness there seems to be a movement of the leg inside the cuff rather than it being "one with the leg". I do not have the experience of being able to have the boot buckles "2 fingers tight" for top buckle and "palm tight" for hinge buckle AND having it be "one with the leg."

Sigh...
 

cantunamunch

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I still find that I can go up 1-2 full buckle notches over the course of the day, and until I get to that maximum tightness there seems to be a movement of the leg inside the cuff rather than it being "one with the leg".

Out of curiosity, are you booting up in the parking lot?

I say that because what you describe here -on relatively new sub-30 day boots- is typical for not having the heel all the way back in the heel pocket.

And the easiest way to do that is to do quickie "shove and strap" bootups in the parking lot.

I do not have the experience of being able to have the boot buckles "2 fingers tight" for top buckle and "palm tight" for hinge buckle AND having it be "one with the leg."

Sigh...

A Booster won't fix that - but it can give you more responsiveness.
 

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