I've read similar descriptions of skis saying "it's easy to release the tails". I'm not 100% sure what it means. My current understanding is that skis that grip really dig into packed snow and ice so you can carve through then like a knife rather than skid, and skis that release the tails easily mean you can position the skis in such a way that you can skid rather than being stuck in a turn. While they're more mutually exclusive, they're almost opposites when it comes to turning. Is my understanding correct?
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What does "releasing the tail" mean?
- Thread starter bananyan
- Start date
If you look at groomer-zoomer skis, you'll see that the tails are very flat -- you get effective edge the whole length of the ski. It's awesome for edge grip through a carved turn as the ski will hold until you very deliberately move out of the turn.
Take that same ski into bumps or more variable terrain and that same tail will attempt to hold onto turn when random snow piles, etc. grab the edge. You can get a sudden "push" across the trail into some area you most definitely wanted to avoid (think trees, rocks, etc.). You have to be more precise to ski flatter-tailed skis in 3D terrain, although it's certainly possible.
A ski with a more turned-up tail lets go easier -- i.e., it takes more input from you to get the tail to "hold".
Take that same ski into bumps or more variable terrain and that same tail will attempt to hold onto turn when random snow piles, etc. grab the edge. You can get a sudden "push" across the trail into some area you most definitely wanted to avoid (think trees, rocks, etc.). You have to be more precise to ski flatter-tailed skis in 3D terrain, although it's certainly possible.
A ski with a more turned-up tail lets go easier -- i.e., it takes more input from you to get the tail to "hold".
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- May 31, 2018
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To add to above, the ability to “release the tails” is generally of little or no value on smooth hard snow. It is fun and useful for soft snow where “slarve” turns that hybridize slides and carves are common. The applicability of this style of turn can be somewhat generalized to “slower” bump lines and other environments where you don’t have the space to ride your skis across their full arc.
The limiting case of a power slide (i.e. full slide) is more or less a side slip and is a good speed control tactic for steep loose snow.
Also, I would distinguish an intentional release from a skid. One of my favorite drills/games is trying to stay in a very narrow vertical column on a run by sequentially drifting turns, to do this well you need pretty flat skis (ie little edge contact). This is a very different sensation to trying to engage your edge to make a carved turn and failing.
The limiting case of a power slide (i.e. full slide) is more or less a side slip and is a good speed control tactic for steep loose snow.
Also, I would distinguish an intentional release from a skid. One of my favorite drills/games is trying to stay in a very narrow vertical column on a run by sequentially drifting turns, to do this well you need pretty flat skis (ie little edge contact). This is a very different sensation to trying to engage your edge to make a carved turn and failing.
The turned up rocker in the tail effectively makes the tail of the ski shorter. A shorter ski is less prone to grabbing on irregular snow surfaces.
A shorter tailed ski would have the same effect as a turned-up tail ski..
A shorter tailed ski would have the same effect as a turned-up tail ski..
I think that is almost but not quite true. It is true when using the tail, but when going sideways (accidentally or on purpose) the turned up tail will be more apt to ride up over crud than the equivalent shorter flat tail. The sharp corners can dig in.
(I think a rounded corner on the tail can have the same effect, though probably to a lesser degree.)
releasing the tail is simply modifying the edge angle to a point where the tail section no longer holds in the snow.. even on groomed snow, (for me) I want a ski that can be worked into varying TR"s while skiing. I dont always just carve down a run, I often break in and out of different turn radii. Some ski's have tails that lock into a turn and require more effort and attention in order to change that radii. While it is true that a Twin or turned up or rounded tail are easier to do this, I like a ski that has a tail that will lock in on a carved turn but will also allow the turn radii to be changed. The Augment is a great example of a ski that can do both, a twin tail is an example of a ski that cant do both. there's a big difference between the two tails as far as ability goes. In certain off-piste conditions, I want the same ability but generally speaking, a rounded rockered tail is preferable
I am not an instructor, and I would love to have an instructor chime in (see what I did there?). My take is that releasing the tail is when the inside edge of the tail (of the outside ski) is no longer gripping the snow at the end of a turn. Time-wise, this occurs when the inside edge of the outside ski is tipping over to become the new inside ski. Depending on the flatness of the tail, there can be a sharp demarcation at this point (a flat tail, i.e., harder to release) vs a curved demarcation ( a turned up tail, i.e. easier to release). Then in flat tail skis, there can be softer construction in the tail making for an 'easier' release. As I am typing this, I see that Ron beat me a similar explanation. Oh well.
I think you got it! "end of a turn" would be defined where the skier decided to change the radii or flatten the ski (edging) into the new turn radii. thats exactly where a ski that locks too much becomes a problem. too much rocker or taper and the tail wont hold long enough to finish the turn correctly and gets sloppy. Realistically, its both ski uphill edges not just one ski's edges
Or on a frame by frame scale, as you're cresting... the top of a mogul or drop for ex... and the only point of contact left for a last ditch micro control is the tail. "Tail Engagemen/Release" becomes critical at that point as a last engagement before committing. At that point it is more of an innate movement as there is usually insufficient time for the brain to engage. IMHO 
At that point it is more of an innate movement as there is usually insufficient time for the brain to engage. IMHO
muscle memory, but you would be surprised what the brain can analyze and calculate in less than 1/10th of a second. Most of the decisions a person makes about others is done in less time (for example). its part of the flight or fight response.
*standard disclaimer about tail feel being _strongly_ governed by boot spine angles*
I think there is a tuning element here as well.
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Not just turned up or not, It’s shape plus rocker plus turn up.
Slalom skis have their tail slightly turned up You can ski switch with them. I’m not sure there’s a ski made with no slightly up turned tail.
People often get the inside ski stuck because they are leaning way inside/uphill, plus they could be aft. If you are too far aft at the wrong time, it can be difficult to release the tail.
As you can guess, this guy has no issues releasing the tail.
Not too far aft though it may look it, as this is in transition. (Ski already released) If you stayed there throughout the turn, yes it would be hard to transition/release the tail for the next one.
You could just add lots of rocker, round the tail, and make the tail softer. While those would make it easier to release, they have big drawbacks on groomed.
Moments later-
I think it’s Paul Lorenz, but I forget.
A ski made more for 3-dimensional snow with a relatively easy releasing tail.
<tip to tail>
Slalom skis have their tail slightly turned up You can ski switch with them. I’m not sure there’s a ski made with no slightly up turned tail.
People often get the inside ski stuck because they are leaning way inside/uphill, plus they could be aft. If you are too far aft at the wrong time, it can be difficult to release the tail.
As you can guess, this guy has no issues releasing the tail.
Not too far aft though it may look it, as this is in transition. (Ski already released) If you stayed there throughout the turn, yes it would be hard to transition/release the tail for the next one.
You could just add lots of rocker, round the tail, and make the tail softer. While those would make it easier to release, they have big drawbacks on groomed.
Moments later-
I think it’s Paul Lorenz, but I forget.
A ski made more for 3-dimensional snow with a relatively easy releasing tail.
<tip to tail>
My Rossi MT's (Carbon) have this issue. Not sure if the ski is too soft and it's causing the tails to release before I'm ready. But the Hero ST's don't do this. It could be the side-cut on the Multi-turn as opposed to a truer slalom ski.
Anyone remember a product from the late '80s, early '90s called the Sno Terminator? Basically just a big 2"x 5" x 1." wedge of unbendable plastic that one stuck onto the tails with industrial-strength double-sided tape - it was meant to solve just this problem.
Most (not all) of my skiing for the last 4 decades has been all carving all the time; I didn't ski moguls with mogul technique until I decided to expand my repertroire about 10 or 15 years ago and don't find too many great moguls to ski all that often, and only got to ski fat skis in deep snow a few years back. Most of my skis are designed to hang onto a turn with a death grip.
Nevertheless, I can think of a situation in which being able to quickly release the tail at will is an extremely important ability to have (besides mogul skiing and smearing short turns in tight trees). Imagine you are locked into a high speed turn and realize, too late, that you are headed where you don't want to go. Due to speed and your ski being in the three dimensional snow, there is not time to change your trajectory by your usual altering of the skis' tipping angle. With a tail that doesn't release you're in big trouble. With a ski that releases the tail easily you can drift the entire ski wide (assuming tip can be released too), or b) drift the tail out for an instantly bigger steering angle and tighten the turn in time - it was not too late.
Nevertheless, I can think of a situation in which being able to quickly release the tail at will is an extremely important ability to have (besides mogul skiing and smearing short turns in tight trees). Imagine you are locked into a high speed turn and realize, too late, that you are headed where you don't want to go. Due to speed and your ski being in the three dimensional snow, there is not time to change your trajectory by your usual altering of the skis' tipping angle. With a tail that doesn't release you're in big trouble. With a ski that releases the tail easily you can drift the entire ski wide (assuming tip can be released too), or b) drift the tail out for an instantly bigger steering angle and tighten the turn in time - it was not too late.
Thanks everyone for the responses. While I can handle higher speeds for me intermediate level, I prefer a more playful ski as I don't like to ski so fast (too tiring sometimes). I think it's more important to be able to release the tail easily than something that locks into the ice as I don't actually need the latter.
Old skis had the worst combination of tail "unreleaseability" with their high stiffness, long turn radius and flat tail. To release the tail you needed to flex your legs to "pull" the tails off the snow and change direction. This is a very useful technique still. Nowadays with shorter radius skis you can a lot of times just "ride" the sidecut and just tilt your ankles and hips to the other side to turn. Of course in a lot of snow conditions this is a recipe for disaster. Do that in older skis and you will go at very high speeds and possibly hit something or someone.
Interesting. Could you elaborate?