What does the right amount of flex supposed to feel/look like when geting new boots?

[CraigH]

I currently have Lange RS 130s I got back in 2018. They are just too stiff for me now despite having material taken out every year since then. I'm pretty small(5'3", 138lbs). I'm in decent shape I'm a pretty agressive skier(I like double blacks, bumps, glades), but only get 1 trip per year. So, I'm pretty rusty the first couple of days. I'm 42 and been skiing since I was 6.

I'm going to go see Barry Allison in Whistler in March to get some new boots. I remember getting my last 2 boots fitted and the fitter always asked "how does this flex feel". I never really had any objective way to say, too soft, just right, too stiff, etc.... I would always just say "I guess". I plan on getting started by checking out 100 flex boots. I know that 100 is not the same across all manufacturers, but I figure that's a good starting point given I'm looking for a more forgiving boot now. With all that background out of the way:

1. What is an objective way to describe what the "correct flex" should look and feel like when trying on boots?
2. How far should you be able to move the cuff forward to say, yep this is good?
3. Standing in a boot on land isn't exactly the same as the power you can put through during actual skiing. What should the perceived level of force be you need to generate to move the cuff to that point in a shop?

 

[Jersey Skier]

I currently have Lange RS 130s I got back in 2018. They are just too stiff for me now despite having material taken out every year since then. I'm pretty small(5'3", 138lbs). I'm in decent shape I'm a pretty agressive skier(I like double blacks, bumps, glades), but only get 1 trip per year. So, I'm pretty rusty the first couple of days. I'm 42 and been skiing since I was 6.

I'm going to go see Barry Allison in Whistler in March to get some new boots. I remember getting my last 2 boots fitted and the fitter always asked "how does this flex feel". I never really had any objective way to say, too soft, just right, too stiff, etc.... I would always just say "I guess". I plan on getting started by checking out 100 flex boots. I know that 100 is not the same across all manufacturers, but I figure that's a good starting point given I'm looking for a more forgiving boot now. With all that background out of the way:

1. What is an objective way to describe what the "correct flex" should look and feel like when trying on boots?
2. How far should you be able to move the cuff forward to say, yep this is good?
3. Standing in a boot on land isn't exactly the same as the power you can put through during actual skiing. What should the perceived level of force be you need to generate to move the cuff to that point in a shop?

Right there with you. Not the 138lb part, just the questions about flex.

 

[Jeronimo]

Pretty sure the answer is completely subjective and up to the individual. Think about it this way, a ripping downhill GS or SL skier wants as much of their forward lean as possible to go into flexing the ski, because when they are telling their skis to turn, they don't want a boot absorbing that flex when they ski could. Now on the flip side, people like us don't need that much instantaneous control. In fact, in conditions we will most likely see, we would most benefit from being able to bend our knees and absorb bumps WITHOUT that knee bend transferring the shin forward pressure directly into the skis. So you really want to find a balance that works well for you. Stiff enough that you can flex your skis adequately to your liking, but soft enough that you feel like you can move your legs a bit and be comfortable.

 

[Philpug]

Barry,

Without seeing what is going on, no one can give you a virtual bootfit. While the boot you are in is not unreasonablely stiff, @Tricia is a little taller is skiing the same shell (RS130). Like with bindings, when you are buying a stiffer boot, you are buying a better built boot with better materials. There is much to consider when selecting a boot or having a boot selected for you besides the stats you provided, dorsal range, leg length, stance, calf.

Question I do have is what size shell are you in and is it the right size because that could have alot to do with your ability to flex it. Am I saying the 130 is not too stiff? No, but myself or anyone on the web cannot either.

 

[CraigH]

Barry,

Without seeing what is going on, no one can give you a virtual bootfit. While the boot you are in is not unreasonablely stiff, @Tricia is a little taller is skiing the same shell (RS130). Like with bindings, when you are buying a stiffer boot, you are buying a better built boot with better materials. There is much to consider when selecting a boot or having a boot selected for you besides the stats you provided, dorsal range, leg length, stance, calf.

Question I do have is what size shell are you in and is it the right size because that could have alot to do with your ability to flex it. Am I saying the 130 is not to stiff? No, but myself or anyone on the web cannot either.

I'm not trying to get a virtual boot fit. As I noted in my OP, I'm going to see Barry Allison in Whistler. Every boot I've ever had has been done by a pro boot fitter, so they've always fit well, but my skill-level exceeds my strength/endurance because I only get 1 trip a year. The boot fitters have always asked me how the flex feels and I dont know how to answer it. I have strong legs for my size and can "flex" any boot out there once or twice in a shop, but the level of power(perceived level of exertion) varies greatly. I need some stiffness, but too stiff just tires me legs out from having to really drive the boot. The question I'm trying to get answered is what does the correct flex FEEL LIKE? Take my Lange RS 130: can I flex it? Yes I can. It takes A LOT of force to flex it. It takes too much force to flex it it IMO and get forced into the back seat a lot now, but for all I know "all of your force" is what it's supposed to take. What is an an approximate PERCEIVED level of effort to flex a boot so that you know it's stiff enough without being too stiff?

 

[Tricia]

I currently have Lange RS 130s I got back in 2018. They are just too stiff for me now despite having material taken out every year since then. I'm pretty small(5'3", 138lbs). I'm in decent shape I'm a pretty agressive skier(I like double blacks, bumps, glades), but only get 1 trip per year. So, I'm pretty rusty the first couple of days. I'm 42 and been skiing since I was 6.

I'm going to go see Barry Allison in Whistler in March to get some new boots. I remember getting my last 2 boots fitted and the fitter always asked "how does this flex feel". I never really had any objective way to say, too soft, just right, too stiff, etc.... I would always just say "I guess". I plan on getting started by checking out 100 flex boots. I know that 100 is not the same across all manufacturers, but I figure that's a good starting point given I'm looking for a more forgiving boot now. With all that background out of the way:

1. What is an objective way to describe what the "correct flex" should look and feel like when trying on boots?
2. How far should you be able to move the cuff forward to say, yep this is good?
3. Standing in a boot on land isn't exactly the same as the power you can put through during actual skiing. What should the perceived level of force be you need to generate to move the cuff to that point in a shop?

HI Craig,

I'm close to the same size as you but a couple inches taller.
I tend to ski in a 110-130 flex boot depending on the boot.

I have a ton of ankle range of motion, so I need a little stiffer boot to push back when I engage it.
What you need is to feel like you're moving the boot without crushing it.

Edit to ask, what size boot are you in?
I'm in a 23.5 (measure 24.5)

The last boots I got were a 140 flex that we cut down to just under 130(ish) and now I'm really liking them.

 

[Philpug]

The question I'm trying to get answered is what does the correct flex FEEL LIKE? Take my Lange RS 130: can I flex it? Yes I can. It takes A LOT of force to flex it. It takes too much force to flex it it IMO and get forced into the back seat a lot now, but for all I know "all of your force" is what it's supposed to take. What is an an approximate PERCEIVED level of effort to flex a boot so that you know it's stiff enough without being too stiff?

Craig (not Barry, sorry).
It might not be the flex, it might be the stance. the RS is a very upriight boot and you might not be able to get forward in it, I know I cannot. I heated my Lange RS's to get the shell from 12* upright to about 14-15" and still added the biggest spoiler I could find. You might add a heel lift to help you flex the boot. There are many things that can be doen before you throw away the baby with the bathwater.

What binding are you using? at 5'3" I am assuming you are in a very small shell, that can have an affect on your being able to get over the ski.

 

[Scrundy]

What you need is to feel like you're moving the boot without crushing it

This is very good explanation

 

[onenerdykid]

Generally speaking, the right flex is supportive enough to provide adequate stability & power transfer yet soft enough to allow you to maintain a balanced, athletic stance while skiing. This means you can actually flex the boot enough to get your knees over your toes, but not flex it so much that you drastically bellow out the lower shell. Boots that are too stiff simply don't move enough and as you try to flex it forward it doesn't and you get pushed into the back seat while skiing. Boots that are too soft move too much and you greatly distort & bellow out the lower shell. For some people the right flex could be a 90 flex, for others a 150. Whatever the flex number, you are looking for a boot that allows you to get your knees over your toes so you can achieve an athletic, ready stance without turning the lower shell to mush.

 

[ejj]

As Phil mentioned, the 130 boots have better liners, among other things. Consider trying some 110 and 120 boots, and even consider a 110 with a new Zipfit or something like that.

 

[Jersey Skier]

Generally speaking, the right flex is supportive enough to provide adequate stability & power transfer yet soft enough to allow you to maintain a balanced, athletic stance while skiing. This means you can actually flex the boot enough to get your knees over your toes, but not flex it so much that you drastically bellow out the lower shell. Boots that are too stiff simply don't move enough and as you try to flex it forward it doesn't and you get pushed into the back seat while skiing. Boots that are too soft move too much and you greatly distort & bellow out the lower shell. For some people the right flex could be a 90 flex, for others a 150. Whatever the flex number, you are looking for a boot that allows you to get your knees over your toes so you can achieve an athletic, ready stance without turning the lower shell to mush.

How is this accomplished when purchasing a boot if most boots stiffen up in the cold?

 

[Noodler]

How is this accomplished when purchasing a boot if most boots stiffen up in the cold?

There is a different view of stance alignment that subscribes to the idea that you shouldn't have to flex a boot to be balanced fore/aft. The boot alignment should be setup so that you're already in a good balanced starting position without needing to flex it forward more.

I view boot flex as providing the right level of support for your body weight, typical skiing speeds, and terrain you ski. The flex provides the level of responsiveness you need/want from the boot. The higher your skiing skill level, typically the more immediate the response from the boot you will want.

 

[onenerdykid]

How is this accomplished when purchasing a boot if most boots stiffen up in the cold?

With educated guess work based on how you flex a boot in the store. If a boot is too stiff at room temperature, then it clearly is a bad choice given exactly what you noted about boots stiffening up in the cold. If a boot is far too soft at room temperature, winter temps aren't going to help it. But if a stiffer boot can be properly flexed at room temperature, then it is most likely going to be ok while skiing. Yes, winter temps will cause it to stiffen, but then you'll also be clicked into a ski binding which allows you to put more pressure into the boot.

 

[Jersey Skier]

With educated guess work based on how you flex a boot in the store. If a boot is too stiff at room temperature, then it clearly is a bad choice given exactly what you noted about boots stiffening up in the cold. If a boot is far too soft at room temperature, winter temps aren't going to help it. But if a stiffer boot can be properly flexed at room temperature, then it is most likely going to be ok while skiing. Yes, winter temps will cause it to stiffen, but then you'll also be clicked into a ski binding which allows you to put more pressure into the boot.

I'm in the new boot shopping phase. My existing boots are 130's that were softened by cutting the clog. It's fine when the temps are cold, but noticeably soft when skiing warm Spring days. Not sure if this can be avoided with a newer boot.

 

[Noodler]

I'm in the new boot shopping phase. My existing boots are 130's that were softened by cutting the clog. It's fine when the temps are cold, but noticeably soft when skiing warm Spring days. Not sure if this can be avoided with a newer boot.

I wish boot manufacturers would go back to the idea of isolating the forward flex control from the boot plastic itself. I had a pair of Dynafit boots back in the '80s that used springs on the rear spine to control the flex. They were easily adjustable with a few turns of a screw/knob to increase or decrease the compression on the spring and thus change the forward flex stiffness. I don't think we'll ever have a plastic material that is completely immune to the impact of the air temp.

 

[CraigH]

Craig (not Barry, sorry).
It might not be the flex, it might be the stance. the RS is a very upriight boot and you might not be able to get forward in it, I know I cannot. I heated my Lange RS's to get the shell from 12* upright to about 14-15" and still added the biggest spoiler I could find. You might add a heel lift to help you flex the boot. There are many things that can be doen before you throw away the baby with the bathwater.

What binding are you using? at 5'3" I am assuming you are in a very small shell, that can have an affect on your being able to get over the ski.

I rent demo skis on our trips, so different bindings every time.

 

[cantunamunch]

\

Not sure if this can be avoided with a newer boot.

Isn't that one of the Hawx' party tricks?

I wish boot manufacturers would go back to the idea of isolating the forward flex control from the boot plastic itself. I had a pair of Dynafit boots back in the '80s that used springs on the rear spine to control the flex. They were easily adjustable with a few turns of a screw/knob to increase or decrease the compression on the spring and thus change the forward flex stiffness. I don't think we'll ever have a plastic material that is completely immune to the impact of the air temp.

You might be right about 'completely immune' but then what does that tell you about the Dynafit?

It tells me that the only reason we didn't notice the lack of immunity was because the shell was way overbuilt to be stiffer than the spring in most conditions.

 

[onenerdykid]

I'm in the new boot shopping phase. My existing boots are 130's that were softened by cutting the clog. It's fine when the temps are cold, but noticeably soft when skiing warm Spring days. Not sure if this can be avoided with a newer boot.

There are some more temperature stable plastics on the market, but they also behave very differently (they feel springier, less damp).

This is partly why racers have multiple boots- some are built for warmer temps, some are built for colder temps.

 

[KevinF]

There is a different view of stance alignment that subscribes to the idea that you shouldn't have to flex a boot to be balanced fore/aft. The boot alignment should be setup so that you're already in a good balanced starting position without needing to flex it forward more.

I view boot flex as providing the right level of support for your body weight, typical skiing speeds, and terrain you ski. The flex provides the level of responsiveness you need/want from the boot. The higher your skiing skill level, typically the more immediate the response from the boot you will want.

x10,000.

I view my ski boots as defining a range of motion that I am restricted to. Neutral -- i.e., just standing there, shins resting gently on the boot cuffs -- should be a comfortable balanced stance. You shouldn't have to "bend the plastic" to get to a balanced state -- that would be exhausting.

I want a stiffer boot because it provides me something to "push back against" should I find myself leaning into it. I want a boot that makes it hard to get out of balance because I simply can't bend the boot enough to get there.

About the only universal "truism" I can think of here is that the stiffer the boot, the more carefully it has to be setup. Ideally, you could ski in a boot that's effectively unbendable -- but you better be positioned perfectly because otherwise you will never get into a balanced state.

 

[onenerdykid]

I wish boot manufacturers would go back to the idea of isolating the forward flex control from the boot plastic itself. I had a pair of Dynafit boots back in the '80s that used springs on the rear spine to control the flex. They were easily adjustable with a few turns of a screw/knob to increase or decrease the compression on the spring and thus change the forward flex stiffness. I don't think we'll ever have a plastic material that is completely immune to the impact of the air temp.

So you want more ways that a ski boot can break/fail? There's a reason why that stuff has more or less disappeared from the boot world.

Suspension elements aren't immune to temperature changes either though. Spring rates change, elastomers change, oil flow rate changes. Your mountain bike's fork and rear shock behave very differently at 0°C vs 25°C