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What does the right amount of flex supposed to feel/look like when geting new boots?

dbostedo

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Tell me more about the "Dodge" failure; I am seriously considering it for my next boot. The only reason I didn't go Dodge this time (still a work in progress), is my belief in in-person fitting and COVID travel difficulties.
I don't know much. But I think they had more traction in the industry a few years ago, and were getting the boots on some pros. But they didn't really "take off" and weren't/aren't the revolution they may have thought early on. They're still making them though, since 2009, so there is some market.

Several of us toured their manufacturing a couple of years ago at the NEG. @James or @TheArchitect may remember or know more. One thing I remember... the flex is controlled purely by trimming the shell. Since the carbon doesn't change with temperature, and all the boots in a model line are the same, they trim the cuff to get different flexes.
 

Dave Dodge

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Even the best Polyether TPU, used in top line boots, changes stiffness by 500% from room temp to -20C. The thermoformable materials are even worse. The thermoplastic composites we use change by ~2%. The fiber changes by 0% and the resin matrix changes the same as any other resin. Since the fiber gives the vast majority of the stiffness and strength the resulting composite changes only 2%. BTW we don't use 100% carbon. There is fiberglass and Kevlar where appropriate. The fibers are also in a thermoplastic resin and can be punched and customized easily with the right equipment.

Dodge is still in business and growing. We put our money into the materials, design and process. It is too expensive to compete with the marketing budgets and distribution networks of the major manufacturers. That limits our growth but sometime small is better.

Try our 3D fitting app (Google or Android). It really works and is free.
 

Dave Dodge

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Coming back to the core of this thread: Contrary to popular belief as stiffer boot, up to a point, is more forgiving than a soft boot, BUT the stiffer boot is much harder to set up properly. If the fore/aft and lateral alignment are not correct a stiff boot won't ski well where a soft boot can tolerate the misalignments.
 

Dave Dodge

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Pretty sure the answer is completely subjective and up to the individual. Think about it this way, a ripping downhill GS or SL skier wants as much of their forward lean as possible to go into flexing the ski, because when they are telling their skis to turn, they don't want a boot absorbing that flex when they ski could. Now on the flip side, people like us don't need that much instantaneous control. In fact, in conditions we will most likely see, we would most benefit from being able to bend our knees and absorb bumps WITHOUT that knee bend transferring the shin forward pressure directly into the skis. So you really want to find a balance that works well for you. Stiff enough that you can flex your skis adequately to your liking, but soft enough that you feel like you can move your legs a bit and be comfortable.
If the forward leans is set correctly you should be able to go from a high stance to max knees-against-chest bump absorption WITHOUT flexing the boot or moving out of a balanced position. A stiff boot will allow you to correct imbalances more quickly and with less effort than a soft boot. Of course, if you can't flex the boot at all it's either too stiff or the forward lean positions your COM back far enough that you have no leverage.
 

USCskibum

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Craig (not Barry, sorry).
It might not be the flex, it might be the stance. the RS is a very upriight boot and you might not be able to get forward in it, I know I cannot. I heated my Lange RS's to get the shell from 12* upright to about 14-15" and still added the biggest spoiler I could find. You might add a heel lift to help you flex the boot. There are many things that can be doen before you throw away the baby with the bathwater.

What binding are you using? at 5'3" I am assuming you are in a very small shell, that can have an affect on your being able to get over the ski.
Can you expand upon stance and what the correct "stance" would be/should be? Is there a way to test for this to see if you are engaging/flexing the boot properly? What limitations/issues prevent you from being able to flex the boot at 12*? Is this the same with any boot were you..for your measurements...need to be in a boot with more forward lean?

Curious how this would play out with an Atomic Hawk Ultra/Prime boot which allows you to change the forward lean???
 

USCskibum

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Can you expand upon stance and what the correct "stance" would be/should be? Is there a way to test for this to see if you are engaging/flexing the boot properly? What limitations/issues prevent you from being able to flex the boot at 12*? Is this the same with any boot were you..for your measurements...need to be in a boot with more forward lean?

Curious how this would play out with an Atomic Hawk Ultra/Prime boot which allows you to change the forward lean???
Came across the following article and information: https://www.southernski.com/balance...14 degree,the rear of the ski, out of balance.

Does any of this pertain to why you could not flex the Lange RX at 12* and required additional forward lean?
 

HardDaysNight

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If the forward leans is set correctly you should be able to go from a high stance to max knees-against-chest bump absorption WITHOUT flexing the boot or moving out of a balanced position. A stiff boot will allow you to correct imbalances more quickly and with less effort than a soft boot. Of course, if you can't flex the boot at all it's either too stiff or the forward lean positions your COM back far enough that you have no leverage.
How nice to read the voice of reason! The idea that a skier should actively through muscular effort be trying to flex his boot (and may not be able to do so because he isn’t strong enough) is misguided. Having the correct fore-aft setup allows the skier to position his COM appropriately in the pressure phase of the turn such that the ground reaction force flexes the boot for him. In effect the boot’s flex acts as a shock absorber; the heavier the skier and the more force his skill allows him to generate, the stiffer the boot he needs.
 

Rocketman787

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Dodge makes boots. My wife and I ordered a pair each using their 3D system. They shipped them and I had a local shop make a set of orthotics for us. That shop owner talked my wife out of keeping the her boots convincing her they were to stiff for her. Am I the only guy whos wife ignores logic coming from their husband but trusts the opinion of a total stranger?!?! Dodge took them back no questions asked. During Covid, no one could travel but being in the airline industry, I was able to fly up and get an in person fitting. Dave and Bill were fantastic. They custom fitted my orthotic, aligned my boots, and drove me back to the airport - great guys. My boots fit perfect. They are absolutely fantastic. It’s the first time in my life Ive skied without foot pain. The feel, the lightness, no hot spots, heel is locked in, can still move my toes, nothing numb, fantastic. They fit like a glove. And also received a high quality boot bag during their promotion. My wife, another story. She has spent more on her high end Technica boot, orthotic, and multiple fittings and her feet are still in pain. She regrets the day she bought those technicas. If nothing improves for her by the end of the season, she is going to cut her losses and get a pair of Dodges. Skiing is an expensive sport. If you can spend a few extra $$ to ski in total comfort, do it. Bill and Dave have worked in the ski industry for several years for major manufacturers. From their combined experience, in my honest opinion, theyve developed perhaps the finest ski boot available today.
 

Philpug

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Dodge makes boots. My wife and I ordered a pair each using their 3D system. They shipped them and I had a local shop make a set of orthotics for us. That shop owner talked my wife out of keeping the her boots convincing her they were to stiff for her. Am I the only guy whos wife ignores logic coming from their husband but trusts the opinion of a total stranger?!?! Dodge took them back no questions asked. During Covid, no one could travel but being in the airline industry, I was able to fly up and get an in person fitting. Dave and Bill were fantastic. They custom fitted my orthotic, aligned my boots, and drove me back to the airport - great guys. My boots fit perfect. They are absolutely fantastic. It’s the first time in my life Ive skied without foot pain. The feel, the lightness, no hot spots, heel is locked in, can still move my toes, nothing numb, fantastic. They fit like a glove. And also received a high quality boot bag during their promotion. My wife, another story. She has spent more on her high end Technica boot, orthotic, and multiple fittings and her feet are still in pain. She regrets the day she bought those technicas. If nothing improves for her by the end of the season, she is going to cut her losses and get a pair of Dodges. Skiing is an expensive sport. If you can spend a few extra $$ to ski in total comfort, do it. Bill and Dave have worked in the ski industry for several years for major manufacturers. From their combined experience, in my honest opinion, theyve developed perhaps the finest ski boot available today.
@Dave Dodge
 

François Pugh

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Dodge makes boots. My wife and I ordered a pair each using their 3D system. They shipped them and I had a local shop make a set of orthotics for us. That shop owner talked my wife out of keeping the her boots convincing her they were to stiff for her. Am I the only guy whos wife ignores logic coming from their husband but trusts the opinion of a total stranger?!?! Dodge took them back no questions asked. During Covid, no one could travel but being in the airline industry, I was able to fly up and get an in person fitting. Dave and Bill were fantastic. They custom fitted my orthotic, aligned my boots, and drove me back to the airport - great guys. My boots fit perfect. They are absolutely fantastic. It’s the first time in my life Ive skied without foot pain. The feel, the lightness, no hot spots, heel is locked in, can still move my toes, nothing numb, fantastic. They fit like a glove. And also received a high quality boot bag during their promotion. My wife, another story. She has spent more on her high end Technica boot, orthotic, and multiple fittings and her feet are still in pain. She regrets the day she bought those technicas. If nothing improves for her by the end of the season, she is going to cut her losses and get a pair of Dodges. Skiing is an expensive sport. If you can spend a few extra $$ to ski in total comfort, do it. Bill and Dave have worked in the ski industry for several years for major manufacturers. From their combined experience, in my honest opinion, theyve developed perhaps the finest ski boot available today.
Yes. Not only husbunds, also fathers, brothers, sisters. It seems to also be sex related. Men usually have no trouble convincing themselves they are better than they really are; women are too easy to convince they are not as good as they are. Some women won't even try a supershape, because it's (quoting demo tent guy) "our race ski". It can even go so far that a women will be reluctant to get a toe punch because the "experts" will think she's a fool for buying a too high level boot without being a "racer".
 

Dave Dodge

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Yes. Not only husbunds, also fathers, brothers, sisters. It seems to also be sex related. Men usually have no trouble convincing themselves they are better than they really are; women are too easy to convince they are not as good as they are. Some women won't even try a supershape, because it's (quoting demo tent guy) "our race ski". It can even go so far that a women will be reluctant to get a toe punch because the "experts" will think she's a fool for buying a too high level boot without being a "racer".
We customize the flex of every pair of boots we sell (150 to 80). We usually err on the side of stiffer because our boots don't stiffen at all in cold temps and the customers old boot get much stiffer. That being said, we can soften them to easily fit anyone's requirements.
 

ADKmel

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So you want more ways that a ski boot can break/fail? ;) There's a reason why that stuff has more or less disappeared from the boot world.

Suspension elements aren't immune to temperature changes either though. Spring rates change, elastomers change, oil flow rate changes. Your mountain bike's fork and rear shock behave very differently at 0°C vs 25°C

LOL I had to DUCT Tape mine on my feet at Whiteface years ago-- yes they do break.
 

Zirbl

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Boots that are too soft move too much and you greatly distort & bellow out the lower shell.
In late on this one to ask about something I'm feeling in my own boots. The point where I feel bellowing of the lower shell happens when the ski is loaded, not when I flex my ankles at transition, which seems to be the bit you're simulating when you flex in the shop. Whether or not the shell buckles in the pressuring phase is something I can only find out by skiing a boot isn't it, or does shop flexing give a reliable indicator of that too?
 

slow-line-fast

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In late on this one to ask about something I'm feeling in my own boots. The point where I feel bellowing of the lower shell happens when the ski is loaded, not when I flex my ankles at transition, which seems to be the bit you're simulating when you flex in the shop. Whether or not the shell buckles in the pressuring phase is something I can only find out by skiing a boot isn't it, or does shop flexing give a reliable indicator of that too?
It’s hard to tell without a lot of experience flexing boots in a shop then seeing how they ski. On this and the OP question I’d just suggest taking your current boots to the shop and directly comparing the flex with another boot, one on each foot. If the current boot flex is too soft (stiff) look for one that feels more stiff (soft) in direct comparison.
 

cantunamunch

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. Whether or not the shell buckles in the pressuring phase is something I can only find out by skiing a boot isn't it, or does shop flexing give a reliable indicator of that too?

I am now totally picturing you in ski boots on a BOSU ball - and that's a good thing :)
 

Henry

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"The point where I feel bellowing of the lower shell happens when the ski is loaded"
Is the clog too big for your foot? A medium or large volume clog for a skinny foot, or a high instep clog for a flat foot? By the way, a Nordica rep told me that the boot plastic permanently softens a very small bit for every flex of the boots. Enough thousands of flexes and the plastic has become too soft for the skier.

Last winter was my 9th year in my Dodge boots, about 30 days a year. I'm on the 3rd set of liners, a few touch ups to the shells with epoxy where I've caused some abrasion and new sole toe & heel inserts, and they're skiing as good as new. If an airline lost mine, I'd buy another pair. These are 130 flex, and it feels like a stiff 130. The flex can be softened but not stiffened by cutting away the back of the clog. I like the stiff flex--it gives something to lever against when I'm off balance and need to recenter, and inputs to the skis are transmitted to the skis more quickly with stiffer boots. I've worked to get my fore & aft balance correct for me with the forward tilt of the cuff, with the spoiler position, and on certain bindings with a shim under the heel binding.
 

KingGrump

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The point where I feel bellowing of the lower shell happens when the ski is loaded, not when I flex my ankles at transition, which seems to be the bit you're simulating when you flex in the shop.

Not really understanding your statement.

Clarifications needed:
(01) Where on the lower clog do you felt the bellowing and during which phase of the turn?
(02) During which phase of your is the ski loaded?
(03) How are you "flexing" your ankles at transition?
 

Zirbl

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Not really understanding your statement.

Clarifications needed:
(01) Where on the lower clog do you felt the bellowing and during which phase of the turn?
(02) During which phase of your is the ski loaded?
(03) How are you "flexing" your ankles at transition?
01 Around where the cuff and the clog meet. Probably starts feeling mush around the apex.
02 Referring to the pressuring phase starting around the rise line and ending whenever it's time to release the ski.
03 Actively closing the ankle joint, staying low through transition. (So not trying to smash down on the top of the cuff, if that's what you're wondering.)
 
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