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What makes a fast ski? Wax vs base condition vs structure vs flex

oldschoolskier

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As @Primoz has said a good grind and wax xan work wonders and make the ultimate difference for the too skiers. For the rest the ultimate speed comes from finding the balance and smoothness on the skis as this is what the top skiers do "easily".
 

snwbrdr

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Are you on the clock where every fraction of a second counts? Or are you recreational, and hate traverses?
 

Primoz

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What makes a ski fast? The skier.
Yes and no. Sure Bolshunov or Klaebo will beat me on any kind of skis they get nowadays, but when I was still racing, and for the record, I sucked big time, top WC racer wouldn't stand a chance against me if he would have shitty skis, and I would have my normal skis (which bragging or not, were always better then perfect :D ).
So yes it's still skier, but when competition is as strong as it is on top of WC, it's still skis that make difference between top 4 or 5 guys. At least talking about xc.
 

Tricia

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This topic is interesting...
Grinding machines from today are light years ahead of those from 20 years ago. Precision is so much bigger, that it's hardly to say we are talking about same thing at all, when comparing today's grinding machines with those from 20 years ago. 20 years ago, when you grinded skis, you basically ended up with brand new ski, which meant plenty of wax cycles first and only then you put ski back on snow. Today, you grind ski before every race (talking about xc skiing, where these things really matter), put race wax on and go ski 50k race... something what noone could ever imagine doing it 20 years ago. So no "hairs" and stuff from 20 years ago are there today, and another thing is, today you grind so little of ptex off, that first skis can really handle 100+ grindings (before it was more like 6 or 7), and second, as it grinds of so little ptex, ptex is still fully saturated with wax when grinding is done.
As for article... it's complete insanity. Not the article itself, but idea of having uniform wax for everyone. You don't achieve anything with this, except for certain company gets more profit, as they got monopoly over selling waxes, but you certainly don't achieve leveling of playing field. Especially with xc, and that's what article is about, ski construction, ptex variant and structure is just as important as wax. Honestly, nowadays at least on WC level, these things are pretty much only thing that makes difference between fast and not so fast skis, as with current wax teams size, it's almost impossible not to get right wax. Eliminating wax, doesn't make a thing, as someone with properly tested 100 pairs of skis will still have insane advantage over someone with 3 pairs. With "wax whatever you want" you still have chance to level this a bit up, as you might be better then opponent when picking right wax combination, with waxing differently etc. (at least on lower level races). But if you take this away, it's only a matter of money and ski stock, which is basically exactly what they wanted to get rid of it.
I remember when I worked at Start Hause back in 2010/11, they had a machine that was used to grind/tune nordic skis for the Olympics (If I'm remmbering correctly) There was a nordic shop next door to Start Haus at the time that used their services.

An alpine/race shop can tune nordic skis but that doesn't mean all of them can do it well.
I don't recall Start Haus having issues at the time.
 

Tony Warren

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Can any chemists in the group lend weight by describing the transformation and molecular differences between a base with "great freshness" versus a "dried, crappy base"? Are the long PE chains breaking down? Is this happening throughout or just at the surface, i.e. can be cured by a grind? And what exactly is getting "dried"?
Most base degradation is the result of environmental variables. Primarily ultra violet radiation. Base materials are generally either sintered or extruded UHMW-PE and these materials are highly resistant to chemical attack, especially acids and hydrocarbons.

To be slightly more technical, UV exposure causes protons to create free radicals that can break crosslinking of the long chain hydrocarbons that make up the plastics. There seems to be some involvement of residual catalysts use in the manufacture of the plastic resins.

UHMW is fairly resistant to UV degradation when compared to low density polyethylene and polypropylene because it has longer chains and far higher molecular weight.

Black bases are less effected by this because the carbon black pigments absorb the UV radiation.

The effect is on the surface of the plastics, perhaps a thousands or so molecules thick. A good base tune will remove the effected material.
 

Tony Warren

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Can any chemists in the group lend weight by describing the transformation and molecular differences between a base with "great freshness" versus a "dried, crappy base"? Are the long PE chains breaking down? Is this happening throughout or just at the surface, i.e. can be cured by a grind? And what exactly is getting "dried"?
For the most part the long-chain polymer molecules are subject to chain scission that is usually caused by thermal stress, or ionizing radiation including UV radiation, electron beam, or gamma radiation, often involving oxygen.

Nothing is getting 'dried.' Usually but not always a grind will take of the thin layer of oxidized material, provided its cause is exposure to UV light. UV exposure is prevented by the use of carbon black in the UHMW master batch. Clear bases or those that are not black are more prone to UV chain scission. If you are exposing your skis to high enough levels of electron beam or gamma radiation, you should take a hard look at where you are storing your skis!

Wax should provide some protection too.
 

Philpug

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I will tell this story again. When I was at Start Haus, a shop that brought in a lot of racers and racer families. At the time there was one young man who was beating everyone. Once a week or so, parents woudl come in for their waxes and would ask "What's on Scotty Labelle's skis to make them go so fast?" We would politely say "Scotty Labelle".
 

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