What Purpose(s) do(es) a White Pass Turn Serve?

4ster

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So what purpose and tangible result would a slow speed WP turn drill serve? What would you observe that would lead you to use it?
One example may simply be that someone is having difficulty releasing their inside ski without lifting it.

Lotta good sense in your post. Got to agree that Hirscher probably didn't set out to do WP turns - was just having fun with a tonne of rebound.



So what is the skier issue that would lead you to getting them to do that slower speed version? What skill are you intending to develop? What is the desired outcome in normal skiing?

Edit: And I see Mike King has similar question...
Sure
Simply put, to discover new sensations.
In my teaching/coaching experience I would use drills when a more holistic approach isn’t getting us there. Each drill is devised to isolate a particular movement that is part of the whole. It allows us to practice and anchor this movement before plugging it back in.

The drill I posted the GIF’s of.
back in the straight ski days and still even in modern times it was common for most recreational skiers to over initiate or twist/pivot/skid the top of their turns. The new sensation I would try to get them to feel is how the edge can be engaged directly or as soon as it is ready for pressure.
As the new outside ski is lifted the edge angle is set in the air and the ski engages as soon as it touches the snow without the pivot/twist/skid & the ski carves. No need to stomp on it, just set it in the snow at angle & the ski carves.
For success it is usually easier for the student and less intimidating if new drills or sensations are first practiced at a slower speed on a pitch and in snow that they are comfortable with. Begin with the simple then move to the more complex.
Many times drills are practiced in a controlled environment so it is not such a shock or panic when it is needed in a real world situation.

As for doing the WPT or converging step turn in powder, I am absolutely certain that I have done it & probably quite frequently in cut up snow.
Here is an old the video that may fit. it’s pretty subtle but there are a few “hanger” turns in there before passing the cameraman. Especially 3 right footers...

And then there was that time I had to ski down on one, talk about a leg burner...
 
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geepers

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Good detailed description. Aimed at a different issue than WP done with more speed but seems a perfectly valid drill for the situation you described.

Take your point re starting at slower speed. But why would it not be done that way? It's a drill for advanced skiers but it doesn't mean it has to be done exactly as shown and at high speed on the very 1st attempt. (Guy Hetherington in his vid points out that skiers should be able to do one legged "railroad" tracks before attempting.) The vids are short demos and not a filmed 2 hour lesson.

Have had both 'whack the outside ski down' and 'gently ease it down' approaches at various times. The whack it down approach quickly creates a firm platform on which to balance. But the ski had better be lined up correctly or it may lead to suffering (in the true sense of the word). Prefer the ease it down method - a split second longer to get solid platform but less likely to lead to an exciting moment.

Not a fan of WP drills in pow and chop.

Nice one ski in the pow! :thumb: Did you swap legs?
 

4ster

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Nice one ski in the pow! :thumb: Did you swap legs?
that was not the only time that I have had to ski down on one leg but it was certainly the best conditions :ogbiggrin: .
I once had a client loose a ski in some steep, chopped up mank about the 2nd turn in & it rocketed down the gully. He had the same BSL as me so I let him take my pair & I skied on his one. It was about 1500’ to his ski & I think I switched legs a few times.
 

cantunamunch

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Not a fan of WP drills in pow and chop.
The LTE does tend to catch and submarine, no matter how slow the set-down.

Which is where ski design, like RCR and Elan Amphibio, comes in.

Which purpose (using the move for ski testing) is the other reason I first asked :D OP never said it had to be just an exercise.


What do you use a WP turn for? And what do you look for as a result in ski and body performance?
 

James

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Patience in angulating. Angulating too quickly at the top of the turn
Ah yes, you mentioned this. Such contortions.
Did we determine the reason for the NZ guy in urban winter camo to raise his outside hip so much? The reverse comma seems a gumby show.

As for reasons to do the exercise- people who are never moving into the new turn but staying in the old one so long they end up stemming, pushing off, etc. to start the new one. Railroad tracks with turning well across the fall line I would probably do before WP.

But see, such a use is almost the opposite of patience.
 

geepers

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Ah yes, you mentioned this. Such contortions.
Did we determine the reason for the NZ guy in urban winter camo to raise his outside hip so much? The reverse comma seems a gumby show.

As for reasons to do the exercise- people who are never moving into the new turn but staying in the old one so long they end up stemming, pushing off, etc. to start the new one. Railroad tracks with turning well across the fall line I would probably do before WP.

But see, such a use is almost the opposite of patience.
Think we are miscommunicating well. :)

It's not patience in getting the CoM to move across the ski. For that WP turns teach commitment not patience.

The patience is what happens next. Moving CoM across the ski is a moment of lateral instability (or toppling). That's 'scary' and self-preservation kicks in. If there's an immediate tendency to angulate to restore lateral stability then we basically stop inclining the CoM further inside and we stop developing further edge angle through inclination. Sure, we can increase edge with more angulation but there's a limited range to work with, most of which we may have just used, and it makes the whole business of getting inside the turn harder work.

(Paul Lorenz article on inclination or angulation)

A WP drill done as per Guy Hetherington or NZSIA guys teaches patience in allowing edge angle to develop through whole body inclination, prior to placing the new outside ski onto the snow and angulating for: lateral balance; further adjustment of edge angle; and, eventually, an aid to toppling out of that turn into the next. Always be moving in or moving out.

For anyone that already has a well developed topple into the new turn, and is regularly touching hip to snow, WP turns (for patience) would probably be passé.

Are there other drills to develop the correct movement pattern? Maybe we can start a list for folk who would rather keep both skis on the snow.
 

James

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Well then, isn’t angulation for those people coming from inclining only the lower legs? I.e., they tip their knees into the turn and not much else. Isn’t the angulation ear based then?

Possibly there’s a lack of commitment to the outside ski also? Once you get that, moving into the new turn is much less scary. You have to be able to trust it.

That’s kind if why I don’t see it as developing “patience”, but commitment into the turn.
 

geepers

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So the line is "Shorten the inside leg". When you do that and the ski comes off the snow then I think it's safe to assume there's not much support being provided by the inside leg. If we can do a drill something like this then I would hazard a that it shows plenty of commitment to the outside ski.




I've come to think of angulation as primarily for lateral balance. And I see no reason to restore balance as soon as the CoM crosses the skis and every reason to hold back somewhat. Patience.

Yes, we have to learn to trust that the skis will catch us. Issue is that we don't do much lateral movement walking around so trust is in short supply. Reason skiers like Tom Gellie and Paul Lorenz say one of the things they have to relearn start of each season is falling inside the new turn.

Only incline the lower legs...?

Reilly. Watch the angle of the jacket zipper.



Sure, can find examples of skiing where folk don't incline the upper body (very much). In which refer back to the Paul Lorenz article about balancing against the centripetal forces.

Have found another way to get inside the turn is a double retraction release. No patience there. CoM is inside the new turn with plenty of inclination before the instinct to balance kicks in. If folk think a WP turn is daunting then try learning projection of body into the new turn for a good performance turn getting off the merry-go-round.
 

TheApprentice

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I've come to think of angulation as primarily for lateral balance.
Mostly correct.
It's also very important along with coiling/ca to help establish and reinforce your contact with the snow.

Only incline the lower legs...?

Reilly. Watch the angle of the jacket zipper.
eh not too much. In my case it's mostly lazyness as opposed to an actual movement of letting the upper body into the turn.
 

geepers

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Mostly correct.
It's also very important along with coiling/ca to help establish and reinforce your contact with the snow.
Well there is the small matter of grip. Platform angle less than 90 degrees - sweet. So the question is: how much do angulation is needed for that? Plus some extra to allow for torsional flattening at tip and tail - more for you as you get a tonne of performance out of the ski.:thumb::thumb:

eh not too much. In my case it's mostly lazyness as opposed to an actual movement of letting the upper body into the turn.
Not so much an actual movement as just using The Force. Tessa doesn't look to be doing any extra move, just lets it flow into the next turn.
 

TheApprentice

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how much do angulation is needed for that?
Usually not too much. There's almost never any real need to have your upper body perfectly vertical in the turn, it's just too much effort for too little return. Though there are some cases where you do need as much as possible (think bulletproof ice) but at that point your grip is mostly determined by how strong your counter is, not so much your angulation. But of course you never want to be going full tree trunk in your turns, as that will reduce your ability to balance by a significant margin.
 

James

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I've come to think of angulation as primarily for lateral balance. And I see no reason to restore balance as soon as the CoM crosses the skis and every reason to hold back somewhat. Patience.
Well that’s what I’m curious about. If you’re not inside the turn, what’s there to counterbalance? What do these people with excessive early angulation look like?

If we can do a drill something like this then I would hazard a that it shows plenty of commitment to the outside ski.
Yeah but that’s well into the turn. It’s the early part that we’re talking, and transition. One could fumble around and then get there late. I.e., the impatient.

Comments by Gellie et al are interesting on relearning the timing, after being off snow (what for 2months??), about getting inside the turn. But, this is like wcup racers “relearning” timing in racing. They still would beat most in the world. It’s not like people who’ve never really gotten it.
 

Steve

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These aren't white pass turns, but the skills discussed seem similar. One of Japan's top technical skiers.

 

LiquidFeet

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@Steve, why do you say these are not White Pass Turns? I'm curious. The ones at the start of the video look like WPTs to me. This thread confirms that there are many ways to do a WPT.

I like that the skier does a broad variety of versions of inside ski turns. She makes it all look like play.
 

Rich McP

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@Steve, why do you say these are not White Pass Turns? I'm curious. The ones at the start of the video look like WPTs to me. This thread confirms that there are many ways to do a WPT.

I like that the skier does a broad variety of versions of inside ski turns. She makes it all look like play.
I agree with @Steve, those don't fit the definition of a WPT. She is staying on the inside ski until or past transition. In a WPT the outside ski is set down at apex/fall line.
 

James

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@Steve, why do you say these are not White Pass Turns? I'm curious. The ones at the start of the video look like WPTs to me. This thread confirms that there are many ways to do a WPT.
No, they’re not WP turns. Looks close, but do your video frame breakdown, you’ll see. She transitions off the old inside, not new inside. Also, wp has the outside ski put down in the fall line.

Not sure what you mean by “many ways” to do a White Pass turn. Certain criteria have to be met, these don’t meet them.
Many situations maybe.
 

Steve

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“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
by any other name would smell as sweet;”

Still some great demonstrations of using the inside ski and IMO certainly related to a WPT, and as the title of the thread includes the purpose of a WPT I think the purpose of these is very similar.
 

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