What Purpose(s) do(es) a White Pass Turn Serve?

Steve

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He does skate off of the inside edge before transitioning to the new outside edge.

Does anyone see that in her video?
 

James

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He does skate off of the inside edge before transitioning to the new outside edge.

Does anyone see that in her video?
No. But I don’t know there’s anything in a Royal Christie where you have to push off. Seems more of a beginner one, or something more on the flats for style and it’s easier.

Some not terribly good ones-

 

razie

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Some good thoughts here. One good use of the white pass drill, is the obvious balancing act on all 4 edges, working on skills.

If you use it as a release, the weighted release or as I sometimes call it, the late release, it has very good applicability in 3D snow, fluffy snow (I think some west coasters refer to it as a magical thing called "powder", when you're caught out of balance late in the turn or you need to keep getting offset towards the new apex, *that guy* turned in front of you past your apex, but you dont want to mess up your line so you have to keep getting offset etc... i think the only difference between the weighted release and a white pass is the insistance on starting the new turn on the inside vs just ending on the old leg, no need for a long glide on the "wrong" edge, for the weighted release, although it could often ensue.

basically if i end the pressure, i stop both turning but most importantly, getting offset towards a distant apex. when you transfer early, contrary to popular opinion, you cant "push" early, so you cant buy any more deflection than the impulse you already have and given the timing of moving the body into the new turn... you get it.

yet Another use, in racing, beyond balance and recoveries, is a timing and tactics issue - contrast it with the opposite, the Ted release or what I call the early release, when you transfer to the inside leg early, before fliping the edges, which is kind'a the default - there are timing differences... also, the "step" is a form of white pass, if you think about it.

the leaning vs angulation issue is specific to this drill: when trying to start the turn gliding on the "wrong" edge, the entire body mass is on the wrong side of that edge to be able to balance, so leaning in is pretty much the way to stay balanced on that edge and create angles.
 
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Steve

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I definitely see the skating push off in the ladies of Aspen video and do see it in the Japanese woman’s skiing. Interesting.

That’s very different than WPT’s.
 

geepers

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Usually not too much. There's almost never any real need to have your upper body perfectly vertical in the turn, it's just too much effort for too little return.
A question: how much strength do you find you need to do those hip on snow turns? Do you regularly squat a few hundred pounds weight?

at that point your grip is mostly determined by how strong your counter is, not so much your angulation
For clarity... What point in the turn we talking about? What counter - ca or cb? (Not used to that terminology. Generally thinking in terms labeled separation and angulation.)

Well that’s what I’m curious about. If you’re not inside the turn, what’s there to counterbalance? What do these people with excessive early angulation look like?
Not a lot of inclination at the top of the turn 'cause already angulating against the modest centripetal forces at that point. Outside ski will be engaged, not inside, but it's park'n'ride as most of the lateral range of motion has already been used.

Yeah but that’s well into the turn. It’s the early part that we’re talking, and transition. One could fumble around and then get there late. I.e., the impatient.
Think the WP turn teaches (1) CoM crossing the skis (which is to do with commitment and not much to do with patience) and (2) patience in allowing inclination to develop before increasing angulation. If the aim is only (1) then low speed WP should do the job.

Comments by Gellie et al are interesting on relearning the timing, after being off snow (what for 2months??), about getting inside the turn. But, this is like wcup racers “relearning” timing in racing. They still would beat most in the world. It’s not like people who’ve never really gotten it.
Sure. Kind of like not forgetting how to ride a bicycle. However we get rusty pretty quickly. In Projected Productions Legacy vids Lorenz makes the point that 1st week back on snow is a good time to try to incorporate new stuff into our skiing - everything feels strange anyway and we're not quite so locked in to the old.

They look like hip dumpers.
View attachment 135465
Think it's the opposite. Hip dumping more about balance bias too far inside and hence on the inside ski. This is more about being biased too far to the outside of the turn at the time we need to move inside to correctly balance against the forces that are building.
 

4ster

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If you use it as a release, the weighted release or as I sometimes call it, the late release
I really like that!
It also reminded me of what I would term as “delayed“ pressure combined with a drift or delayed release. I find myself using it a lot in terrain where there are lots of terrain changes, rocks, bushes, trees or other obstacles etc. Whether it’s powder, windblown or other slarvy snow, I will find myself actually skidding on the inside ski ala WP to loose elevation & drop beneath an obstacle before shifting pressure to the outside ski, leveling the shoulders then (wait for it) & ZING!, finishing the turn on target & maintaining the line l want be on for the rest of the pitch. Really just a tactic to adjust line without slamming on the brakes. Works great with wide rocketed skis but can be done on narrow SL skis as well. More difficult with an aggressive, less than 1° base bevel. Hard to describe & I’m not sure that makes sense. Wish I had video but what I am picturing has most of the elements of WP & some stivot.
 

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A question: how much strength do you find you need to do those hip on snow turns? Do you regularly squat a few hundred pounds weight?
Not much actually. There's really only one point in the turn where I'm ever actually using physical effort, and that would be at the moment of pressure at the apex of the turn. I've never actually been all that strong, my peak physical condition was probably during highschool where I could do maybe 5x5 of 200lb, though pretty much all of my exercising was done through motor/bicycling and swimming, not so much weightlifting. As of now I'm horribly out of shape and could maybe do 3-4 days max of hard skiing before having too much lower back pain and having to take a day or two off to recuperate. Though that's only going to get worse with time, so I should probably start getting into proper shape.

For clarity... What point in the turn we talking about? What counter - ca or cb? (Not used to that terminology. Generally thinking in terms labeled separation and angulation.)
Counter = ca = separation, cb = angulation. Counter should be held as early as possible, for as long as possible, as hard as possible. It's one of the most important movements in the turn, and your technique will fall apart without it. Angulation I apply more freely, as it's rare that I'll actually need to use excessive amounts of it, but it's still useful for balance
 

geepers

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Not much actually. There's really only one point in the turn where I'm ever actually using physical effort, and that would be at the moment of pressure at the apex of the turn. I've never actually been all that strong, my peak physical condition was probably during highschool where I could do maybe 5x5 of 200lb, though pretty much all of my exercising was done through motor/bicycling and swimming, not so much weightlifting. As of now I'm horribly out of shape and could maybe do 3-4 days max of hard skiing before having too much lower back pain and having to take a day or two off to recuperate. Though that's only going to get worse with time, so I should probably start getting into proper shape.



Counter = ca = separation, cb = angulation. Counter should be held as early as possible, for as long as possible, as hard as possible. It's one of the most important movements in the turn, and your technique will fall apart without it. Angulation I apply more freely, as it's rare that I'll actually need to use excessive amounts of it, but it's still useful for balance
Thanks for that.

On the effort... so there's a number of other folk who also say the effort in a given turn isn't huge if we balance properly against the forces. Not zero but not huge.
OTOH some folk recommend squatting 400lbs +. I can see the point for handling compressions or surviving wipe-outs at GS, SuperG or DH speeds. Not so convinced of that for rec skiing.

I'm sure you have plenty of good advice however as some-one a lot closer to the other end of life than yourself I'd advise doing whatever is necessary - strength/technique - to avoid injury through repetitive over-straining. Not worth it unless some-one's paying millions of dollars in endorsements. And maybe not even then.

On the counter... why as hard as possible? Surely if we counter beyond a certain amount we'll reach the 'stop' in the hip socket and the femur will start to counter rotate, eventually flattening the outside ski?
 

TheApprentice

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Surely if we counter beyond a certain amount we'll reach the 'stop' in the hip socket and the femur will start to counter rotate, eventually flattening the outside ski?
Because the brain will always make you think you're doing more than you actually are. Purposefully skiing at the maximum of your range of motion will train your body to be more comfortable at the positions you would normally hold in the turn. But yes, when my lower back hurts (which it always does) it's solely because of how much counter I use, or at least try to use in my turns. The femur shouldn't be rotating with the hip. What I do for to focus this for stretching is to shuffle my skis and face my hip down the hill, then bring them together while trying to keep my hip pointing in the same direction.

It hurts. A lot.

I can see the point for handling compressions or surviving wipe-outs at GS, SuperG or DH speeds. Not so convinced of that for rec skiing.
It's mostly a consequence of what kind of skiing you're trying to do. performance skiing/racing/moguls will require you be in shape, or will bend you into shape. Where normal req skiing is much more lax in that regard. So while my turns don't require too much effort per turn, I still do a lot in a run, and then the next, and so on.
 

Rod9301

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Not much actually. There's really only one point in the turn where I'm ever actually using physical effort, and that would be at the moment of pressure at the apex of the turn. I've never actually been all that strong, my peak physical condition was probably during highschool where I could do maybe 5x5 of 200lb, though pretty much all of my exercising was done through motor/bicycling and swimming, not so much weightlifting. As of now I'm horribly out of shape and could maybe do 3-4 days max of hard skiing before having too much lower back pain and having to take a day or two off to recuperate. Though that's only going to get worse with time, so I should probably start getting into proper shape.



Counter = ca = separation, cb = angulation. Counter should be held as early as possible, for as long as possible, as hard as possible. It's one of the most important movements in the turn, and your technique will fall apart without it. Angulation I apply more freely, as it's rare that I'll actually need to use excessive amounts of it, but it's still useful for balance
Angulation is useful for the edge to be under the combined force on the com, so you don't slide out ona icy turn
 

Rod9301

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Because the brain will always make you think you're doing more than you actually are. Purposefully skiing at the maximum of your range of motion will train your body to be more comfortable at the positions you would normally hold in the turn. But yes, when my lower back hurts (which it always does) it's solely because of how much counter I use, or at least try to use in my turns. The femur shouldn't be rotating with the hip. What I do for to focus this for stretching is to shuffle my skis and face my hip down the hill, then bring them together while trying to keep my hip pointing in the same direction.

It hurts. A lot.



It's mostly a consequence of what kind of skiing you're trying to do. performance skiing/racing/moguls will require you be in shape, or will bend you into shape. Where normal req skiing is much more lax in that regard. So while my turns don't require too much effort per turn, I still do a lot in a run, and then the next, and so on.
,
Geepers, if you're getting back pain from ca, likely you're doing too much with your upper body instead of your hips.

I had a lot of back pain a few years ago when i was trying to improve my ca.

Then i started to think of pointing the hips to the outside, and the pain went away.
 
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Mike King

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Not much actually. There's really only one point in the turn where I'm ever actually using physical effort, and that would be at the moment of pressure at the apex of the turn. I've never actually been all that strong, my peak physical condition was probably during highschool where I could do maybe 5x5 of 200lb, though pretty much all of my exercising was done through motor/bicycling and swimming, not so much weightlifting. As of now I'm horribly out of shape and could maybe do 3-4 days max of hard skiing before having too much lower back pain and having to take a day or two off to recuperate. Though that's only going to get worse with time, so I should probably start getting into proper shape.



Counter = ca = separation, cb = angulation. Counter should be held as early as possible, for as long as possible, as hard as possible. It's one of the most important movements in the turn, and your technique will fall apart without it. Angulation I apply more freely, as it's rare that I'll actually need to use excessive amounts of it, but it's still useful for balance
I think many technical skiers would disagree with you. For example this one:
 

TheApprentice

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I think many technical skiers would disagree with you. For example this one:
Takao follows the Japanese/Korean school of skiing, which has a much lower emphasis on upper body separation than more race focused schools, such as Austrian. Of course he would agree that counter is a very important part of the turn, but would disagree with how much emphasis I put on it. That comes down to a difference in ideology and what the end goal is for their skiing. I think there's either a projected productions movie or a Reilly video that explains what the Japanese look for in a performance turn. They look for stability at speed, with consistency and comfortability. Racing ideology focuses on how to bend a ski the most in the shortest amount of time and distance, with the minimal amount of effort required. The more you want to bend a ski and sharpen up a turn, the more counter is going to become a very large mainstay in your technical model.
 

geepers

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Because the brain will always make you think you're doing more than you actually are. Purposefully skiing at the maximum of your range of motion will train your body to be more comfortable at the positions you would normally hold in the turn.
Ok, exaggeration of movement may be valid. Although it may be equally important to understand that whilst a little salt helps the flavor more salt is not necessarily better.

It hurts. A lot.
Gotta say, whilst your Blue jacket vids show plenty of performance, suffering doesn't seem such a wonderful idea. Guess it's the difference between 'good' pain where something is being stretched for improved flexibility and harmful pain likely to lead to permanent damage.

normal req skiing
Yep, it's a term with a wide range of interpretation.

Geepers, if you're getting back pain
Think you mean that comment for @TheApprentice
 

slow-line-fast

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Re: counter, I like Deb Armstrong’s video on this (see especially the first minute or so) and have been working on reducing my own ‘over-baked’ counter. A short shuffle between turns has been a useful exercise for this as it squares everything up. I wonder if white pass turns could also be useful for reducing excessive counter - but haven’t played around with that yet

 

geepers

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I wonder if white pass turns could also be useful for reducing excessive counter - but haven’t played around with that yet
Certainly useful for outside foot placement wrt inside foot entering the fall line. Sure as heck not going to place that outside ski on the snow too far back if intending to stay upright.



NZSIA make some good points on counter.

 
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Mike King

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Takao follows the Japanese/Korean school of skiing, which has a much lower emphasis on upper body separation than more race focused schools, such as Austrian. Of course he would agree that counter is a very important part of the turn, but would disagree with how much emphasis I put on it. That comes down to a difference in ideology and what the end goal is for their skiing. I think there's either a projected productions movie or a Reilly video that explains what the Japanese look for in a performance turn. They look for stability at speed, with consistency and comfortability. Racing ideology focuses on how to bend a ski the most in the shortest amount of time and distance, with the minimal amount of effort required. The more you want to bend a ski and sharpen up a turn, the more counter is going to become a very large mainstay in your technical model.
Really?

 

TheApprentice

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1623340727984.png

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Every single turn after the 00:05 mark.
There are one or two exceptions later in the course, but as the saying goes: The exceptions that prove the rule.
So in conclusion:
Yes, really.
 

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