What Purpose(s) do(es) a White Pass Turn Serve?

[James]

Well, you're lucky to have skied with him! But I'd say this video shows he rotates his hip into the top of the turn in pretty much all of his turns.

He taught that in his interski video. Words in English were tough, but he was pretty clear with the demo and his hands.
Did you really mean to post the same vid 4 times? Also, it’s almost an hour long. TL;dw What part are you talking about.

 

[markojp]

I'll agree we can't go on like this.

Well, you're lucky to have skied with him! But I'd say this video shows he rotates his hip into the top of the turn in pretty much all of his turns.
Here he's teaching a bump skiing lesson. What's the first thing he teaches? Hip rotation:


Step 2 is using hip rotation in a bit of a falling leaf:


Here he is teaching hip rotation in the bumps:


Watch the difference in the outside hip of the students in their before and after lesson clips here:

He's quite clear about this in both his Japanese and English demo sessions.

 

[geepers]

I only saw one, but it's not the tip lead that starts the turn. It's the old downhill ski that's now on the little toe edge

No argument that it's not tip lead that starts the turn. Thought the discussion was about how we end up separated (or counter-rotated).

Only saw one? We must be watching something different. Never been sure how an inside foot that is positioned next to the outside knee cannot result in tip lead when the shin is canted forward 10-14 degree by the ski boot. For a 24" lower leg that's going to provide 4" to 5" right there.

etc...

 

[Mike King]

He taught that in his interski video. Words in English were tough, but he was pretty clear with the demo and his hands.
Did you really mean to post the same vid 4 times? Also, it’s almost an hour long. TL;dw What part are you talking about.

Well, I thought I was posting to start at specific points of the video... Not sure what happened to that...

 

[Chris V.]

I've never been good at this.

OK, we've seen illustrations of various ways of vaulting oneself across the skis to get onto the little toe edge of the new inside ski. One thing that stands out about the White Pass drill or technique is the larger amount of lateral movement needed in the transition.

I'm sure that I could create enough lateral movement to make myself fall right over to the inside. What are the skills and strengths needed to allow one instead to achieve and maintain balance on a carving little toe edge?

 

[geepers]

I've never been good at this.

OK, we've seen illustrations of various ways of vaulting oneself across the skis to get onto the little toe edge of the new inside ski. One thing that stands out about the White Pass drill or technique is the larger amount of lateral movement needed in the transition.

I'm sure that I could create enough lateral movement to make myself fall right over to the inside. What are the skills and strengths needed to allow one instead to achieve and maintain balance on a carving little toe edge?

What works best for me is to use the forces from the previous turn to start the topple into the new turn. So on the 1st turn (or two) ski normally on 2 skis, then - if not already doing so - keep the old outside ski tracking back underneath the body so the CoM topples over. Also preserve angulation from the previous turn. Allow the old inside ski to lift from the snow, helped somewhat by lifting that knee. The aim is to send your body across the ski the right rate and amount for the planned turn. If you undercook it the new turn will be extended since not much edge angle will be developed. If overcooked then there is the option to extend the new outside leg outward to rebalance. There's always the option to fall over, of course, but best avoid that. Hopefully the body moves inside the new turn close to what's planned, the new inside ski rolls onto the inside edge and as the ski turns towards the fall line the new outside ski is lowered onto the snow and we engage that edge, angulate and get that wonderful feeling of being propelled across the hill.

There's only a brief moment or so where we on that inside ski and to my mind it takes no special strength as the ski is not really loaded. Best to make sure that can do one ski roller blades turns (on either ski) before attempting.

Rinse, repeat. And then take the timing of the topple and the engagement of the outside ski into normal skiing. Pitch should be long enough for several whitepass turns and still have space to transition to normal skiing.

This is best 1st attempted on a mild softish, groomer. Needs some gradient but not too much. Something that can be comfortably pure carved without significant effort. These are carving turns and will result in plenty of speed. Should be soft enough that it won't cause too much impact if.... ah... we overcook the topple. But not piles of soft snow that could catch the raised ski.

 

[Rod9301]

keep the old outside ski tracking back underneath the body so the CoM topples over. Also preserve angulation from the previous


If all you do is this, the com will not cross.

You need, like in a normal turn, to flex and, keeping weight in the old outside ski, tip it to the little toe edge. No reason to lift the other ski, as it will have no weight anyway.

This is a very quick turn, so it's pretty helpful in some situations. You should be able to transfer the weight to the other, new outside ski, at any time.

 

[geepers]

If all you do is this, the com will not cross.

This is what I mean by "preserve angulation from the previous turn".

The CoM will cross - for sure.

It doesn't have to be a quick turn. Can take your time at first with wider, slower transitions and pick up the pace as required.

 

[Chris V.]

Geepers and Rod 9301, this is helpful. I can see that "using the forces from the previous turn to start the topple into the new turn," "preserving angulation from the previous turn," and "flexing the old outside leg" are important skills that practicing White Pass turns can reinforce, and that as to the first two, must be accomplished a bit more strongly to achieve a White Pass turn compared to a "regular" turn. So partly it seems to be a matter of commitment.

Now, as to geepers' comment, "There's only a brief moment or so where we on that inside ski and to my mind it takes no special strength as the ski is not really loaded. Best to make sure that can do one ski roller blades turns (on either ski) before attempting." First, looking at the various demo video clips in this thread, there's variation in the "brevity" of the moment of being on the inside ski. Some skiers are getting into balance where they could continue to ride the arc on the inside ski all the way to a stop, while others look to be falling rather quickly back to the outside ski, demonstrating no ability to prevent that. Second, I also have trouble with the one ski roller blade turns, suggesting some deficiency in strength in certain muscles, or in the combination of strength and balance.

 

[geepers]

Geepers and Rod 9301, this is helpful. I can see that "using the forces from the previous turn to start the topple into the new turn," "preserving angulation from the previous turn," and "flexing the old outside leg" are important skills that practicing White Pass turns can reinforce, and that as to the first two, must be accomplished a bit more strongly to achieve a White Pass turn compared to a "regular" turn. So partly it seems to be a matter of commitment.

Now, as to geepers' comment, "There's only a brief moment or so where we on that inside ski and to my mind it takes no special strength as the ski is not really loaded. Best to make sure that can do one ski roller blades turns (on either ski) before attempting." First, looking at the various demo video clips in this thread, there's variation in the "brevity" of the moment of being on the inside ski. Some skiers are getting into balance where they could continue to ride the arc on the inside ski all the way to a stop, while others look to be falling rather quickly back to the outside ski, demonstrating no ability to prevent that. Second, I also have trouble with the one ski roller blade turns, suggesting some deficiency in strength in certain muscles, or in the combination of strength and balance.

Be more challenging if unable to ski one legged roller blade turns. Guy Hetherington reckons that's a prerequisite for wp turns.

An addditonal note on why I find wp turns such a great drill. Sam Robertson of BPS recently posted an MA vid of competent and less competent skiers doing gates.

He points out that the competent skier uses inclination to develop edge angle (without loading the ski) above the gate rise line, with the skis pointing somewhat outside of the gate, and then uses angulation to load the ski (now with good edge) to turn when sure of making the gate. Efficient turns with min time spent with loaded edges. Fast.

The less competent skier starts to angulate early, before developing much edge through inclination. The skis then turn towards the gate too early and that skier needs to feather the edges to make the gate. Less efficient turns. Slower.

Now I'm not running gates. My goal is to pure carve a slightly steeper pitch than I could last time and manage speed. Still need efficient turns in order to spend less time accelerating in the fall line. The wp turn teaches:
1. Patience in allowing edge angle to develop through inclination.
2. Patience in loading the new outside ski - it's hard to load something that's not on the snow.
3. The timing for when to engage and load the outside ski. At that point (approaching the fall line) the upper body does not incline further and angulation applies all that luvly upper body ballast to the ski (platform angle) whilst allowing us to move further inside (to balance forces) with increased edge angle. Get the turn done and start the topple into the next.

No doubt this reads a heap better than it actually looks on snow.

Thoroughly recommend that BPS vid from Sam. The racers will know this stuff but it sure helps my understanding.

 

[HardDaysNight]

He points out that the competent skier uses inclination to develop edge angle (without loading the ski) above the gate rise line, with the skis pointing somewhat outside of the gate, and then uses angulation to load the ski (now with good edge) to turn when sure of making the gate. Efficient turns with min time spent with loaded edges. Fast.

This is correct and good advice. You have spoken about maintaining angulation through the end of the turn and through the transition into the next. The reason to do this is to enable the skis to carve back up underneath you and out to the new side whereupon the old turn angulation automatically becomes inclination at the top of the new turn.

 

[slow-line-fast]

1. It's fun, and challenges balance which is always good, when the skier is ready for this particular exercise
2. When trained in the toolbox, can be a slight risk-it tactic in racing? The line is a little pinched, instead of trading speed for direction at the bottom of the turn, just keep a clean carve and use strength to deal with the consequences at/after the next gate, which might or might not mean a fast time. Seems like we see this more often from Austrians than others

6:06 for example

Also this video has von Grünigen turns, because he skis in it

 

[James]

This is what I mean by "preserve angulation from the previous turn".

Not necessary to do a white pass in general, but might be in a specific situation. You could do them as a wooden soldier. Might actually be easier to learn.

 

[geepers]

@Chris V.

There's a different drill that also works on similar stuff. The slippy grippy turn.

As the previous turn completes and the new one starts
1. Pivot the skis across the direction of travel - tips turn towards downhill (the slippy bit)
2. As this is done at advanced speed it will require separation, the skis sliding sideways will result in weight transfer to the outside ready to establish a platform and the upper body will incline inside.
3. As the direction of travel turns towards the fall line, let the skis come back on line, angulate and carve the rest of the turn (the grippy bit).

Here's a mild version:

Here's young racers learning:

Here's the advanced version:

World's best practice?

Not necessary to do a white pass in general, but might be in a specific situation. You could do them as a wooden soldier. Might actually be easier to learn.

Depends on how performant the turns. At the speeds demo-ed by the PSIA skier could also be asleep.

 

[Chris V.]

Geepers, I'm not totally seeing the connection between slippy-grippy turns or stivoting, and White Pass turns. Both are done most effectively using a weighted release?

 

[geepers]

Geepers, I'm not totally seeing the connection between slippy-grippy turns or stivoting, and White Pass turns. Both are done most effectively using a weighted release?

The similarity is the lessons for timing of movements in the turn - inclination at the top of the turn, delaying angulation/engagement. (Will plead guilty to being fixated on what I get from either drill. Which of course may not be the same for everyone else.)

If the focus is on how to actually get across the ski for edge change then the drills are not so common. (Am I reading that right from your question re releases?) The slippy grippy is not really the drill for that focus - in fact it bypasses the commitment required for the one legged phase of the wp drill. Which is why I suggested it as an alternative.

Specifically to the question... IMHO the WP turn is best done with a weighted (or even a CoM) release. Whereas for the slippy grippy practically anything that gets the skis mostly flat for the pivot will do. In the vids above Hetherington uses an extension, Hirscher uses a double flex.

My experience in CSIA workshops is that both drills are done at speed. May start slow to get everyone on the same page, then the pace picks up quickly. They are entertaining drills - no sleeping.

 

[markojp]

@Chris V.

There's a different drill that also works on similar stuff. The slippy grippy turn.

As the previous turn completes and the new one starts
1. Pivot the skis across the direction of travel - tips turn towards downhill (the slippy bit)
2. As this is done at advanced speed it will require separation, the skis sliding sideways will result in weight transfer to the outside ready to establish a platform and the upper body will incline inside.
3. As the direction of travel turns towards the fall line, let the skis come back on line, angulate and carve the rest of the turn (the grippy bit).

Here's a mild version:

Here's young racers learning:

Here's the advanced version:

World's best practice?



Depends on how performant the turns. At the speeds demo-ed by the PSIA skier could also be asleep.

Guy is CSIA... get your association slagging correct!

 

[razie]

I'll agree we can't go on like this.

Well, you're lucky to have skied with him! But I'd say this video shows he rotates his hip into the top of the turn in pretty much all of his turns.:

but that is precisely what he is NOT doing, is he?

his skis turned like 270 degrees and his hips turned like 20 degrees, during that turn!!! i can barely counteract the turning of the ski that much, when i work hard at it and end up looking funny while doing it!! he makes it look awesome and easy, but let me ask: how many here of anywhere counteract MORE than this, to be able to call this "rotation"???

i think, like markojp said, a lot of his stuff is lost in translation!!

 

[geepers]

but that is precisely what he is NOT doing, is he?

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his skis turned like 270 degrees and his hips turned like 20 degrees, during that turn!!! i can barely counteract the turning of the ski that much, when i work hard at it and end up looking funny while doing it!! he makes it look awesome and easy, but let me ask: how many here of anywhere counteract MORE than this, to be able to call this "rotation"???

i think, like markojp said, a lot of his stuff is lost in translation!!

Ok, I'm kind of confused here.

270 degrees.... A full circle is 360 degrees. So 270 degrees is 3/4 of the way around a full circle. The skis would have to be pointing back up the hill to achieve that.

So 270 degree of ski rotation is not what is seems to be shown in your images. Looks like the skis sweep through (approx) 4:30 to 7:30. Which is about 90 degrees.

Also, Mike wrote "... rotates his hip into the top of the turn".

So surely we should be looking at the rotation of the hip into the top of the turn rather than showing images well past the fall line?

 

[geepers]

Guy is CSIA... get your association slagging correct!

Yeah, knew that.

Still wondering why the PSIA slomo version...