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What to focus on next: carving or off-piste?

François Pugh

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I think you’re right.


I guess it depends on folk’s definition of carving. This video does a great job of defining how I have always thought about it.
You really only need to view the first couple of min to get the idea…
It seems everybody is using a different dictionary. Carving can be arc-2-arc pure carving (relative motion between snow and ski edge is tangential at all points of contact) or Carving without even having the snow moving tangential to the edge at all times. Also a good portion of many turns, even what this guy calls carving is not pure carving - look at how much snow is flying and look closely at the relative motion between ski and snow.
My definition of pure arc-2-arc carving does not depend on g-force or how much bend in the ski. Skis go from straight 0 g to 4 gs at apex in a good pure carve arc-2-arc turn. Also note: at transition, truth is turn radius is infinity, but edge radius is whatever the skis radius is, so not truly arc-2-arc pure carving. That's why transitions need to be fast. ogsmile
 

4ster

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@François Pugh my definition of carving is where the tail of the ski follows the same path as the tip. I call what’s happening between “redirecting”. This can happen in varying degrees.
What you call arc to arc, Sean (in the video) calls arcing. The term arcing came during the advent of shaped skis. Before that pure arcing/carving didn’t happen often, mostly in railroad track turns or very large radius downhill or super G yet high level skiers & racers always “carved” turns.
I have heard competitive bump skiers describe their turns as carved even though the carving phase is only a fraction of a second.

I would argue that these are carved turns…
0638E8EC-862F-4134-82AF-4CAF2E0B7919.jpeg


YMMV :huh:
 
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mister moose

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Both. It's a spiral.

I just read the entire thread to date, and this is the most concise earned-truth laden answer. Lots of other good info, but this is my favorite.

Why? Both require good fundamentals, and aspects of those fundamentals elude you until you take it to that more challenging terrain. You discover what in your current skiing doesn't work, and go back to the easier terrain to experiment and learn. It is an ever widening circular journey. It is a spiral. Also, perfect learning bumps or powder or woods doesn't grow on trees. Take what's offered, be flexible to the day's conditions. Powder mornings frequently turn into bump afternoons.

Several folks have recommended short turns without a description. Here's two:
Ski an uphill snowmobile track on terrain you are comfortable with, and turn so that your tips never leave the width of the track.
You know that ad about CPR compressions at the rate of the beat of Stayin Alive? Turn L R L R L R at that rate.

Those are short turns that you can bring to the bumps.
 

RoninSkier

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Hello! I'm an intermediate skier with a ton of passion for learning proper technique. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what skills I should focus on improving next.

A bit about me: I learned skiing as an adult and have been skiing for 7 years now. I took group lessons for my first 3 years and then some private lessons on and off every year since then. I can ski most groomed terrain (blue / black) comfortably but would love to improve my technique on groomers. I can also ski off-piste runs but I struggle on the steeper blacks with bumps, and I am definitely not doing it gracefully.

My question is: what should I work on next?
(a) become a better skier on the groomers. The thought here is that becoming a better skier on groomers will teach me the right technique that will become useful when I advance to bumps / un-groomed terrain. OR
(b) start learning to ski steeps / bumps more gracefully. This would open up more of the mountain for me. I can already do almost any groomer so this would allow me to enjoy more types of runs.

My personal preference is to start with learning steeps / bumps. But I don't know if that's premature if I'm not awesome on groomers yet.

Would love to hear your advice. Thank you!
Start with a) learning & developing all core skills on groomers. Lots of skiing with intent and lots of specific drills.
Then transition back and forth between the groomer and chopped up stuff along the side. Then make forays off piste.

Use ski runs just a level easier than what you can handle. So that you can really focus on developing technique. Trying to learn in challenging terrain will only develop your athletism and likely crappy technique - your focus is to build muscle memory, proper technique not ad hoc ones.

IMO everything except pumping/porpoising and platforming for powder can be learned on groomers.

For bumps work with an experienced instructor who is a good bump skier
learn to make & practice -
- good brushed SR & ultra short turns increasing in tempo and variation
- check & jump turns
- how to shift your feet back & forth + flex/extend over bumps (the crest, spine, side shoulders & gutter) - all to keep balanced / centered instanteously at will
- how to quickly read a mogul field & choose / adjust your line.

There are lots of drills you can practice & master for the bumps that you can do on the groomers.... then carry these skills to the side of the run into the chop occasionally followed by the bumps.

If you just dive into the bumps, into the trees - yeah you will develop reaction, balance - but technique, functional technique, not to just to look pretty.... highly unlikely.

GL
 
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no edge

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My opinion... if you want to improve your skiing and you spend a lot of time free skiing then keep it varied - constantly varied.

To improve bump skiing, find a low angle set of bumps and practice slow skiing in the bumps. When I suggest slow that means very slow improving your form every run. Understand the objective. What do you want for an outcome. Deb Armstrong offers some great tips for breaking down the skills of bump skiing. Go to the bumps and practice then go practice other skills on low angle. If you don't have a coach or an instructor or a ski buddy who is really good, that means you have to make this happen on your own.

Good luck.
 

David Chaus

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What to focus on next: carving or off-piste?​

I was participating in a ski camp, and as we approached a section with cut up powder, one person asked the coach, how to ski it? She replied, ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!”
 

RoninSkier

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Basic Pivot Slips are one of many good drills on the path to mastery …
View attachment 193728
They help develop a centered stance
Independent leg action
Separation between the upper & lower body
Edge control

Remember drills like this are designed to isolate particular movements, they are not the finished product.
Indeed, and add
side slipping with moderate to hard edge sets
transition from pivot slips into brushed then more edge gripped SR & ultra SR turns
try some speis (jump pivots) then jump turns
foot shuffles, foot strokes & mule kick turns & exggerated flexion/extension - always keeping centered

Once you have gain pretty good muscle memory from these drills make them a main stay in your turns. Practice variations of med to SR to ultra SR turns.

Start taking them into the chop along the side of the run.... then into easy moguls, always focusing on good technique... then harder bumps.

GL
 

mister moose

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I was participating in a ski camp, and as we approached a section with cut up powder, one person asked the coach, how to ski it? She replied, ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!”
I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.
 

markojp

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I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.

The fundamentals are the same. If one is in dynamic balance and moving with their skis, all's well. The only change i might make is keeping knees more under my pelvis (less lateral displacement).

The skiers you're observing are more than likely not skiing in balance on groomers, and off piste proves it. Crud is the same, just less forgiving.
 
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KevinF

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I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.

The fundamentals are the same. If one is inndynamic balance and moving with their skis, all's well. The only change i might make is keeping knees more under my pelvis (less lateral displacement).

The skiers you're observing are more than likely not skiing in balance on groomers, and off piste proves it. Crud is the same, just less forgiving.

I'm not going to proclaim myself to be a great skier by any means. New England is home and we've had a string of lousy winters, which means lots of time on icy groomers.

I was at the recent Utah gathering where we had an essentially all-day bottomless day at Sundance. As @markojp relates -- the ability to make a balanced round turn leads to a lot of dividends even in unfamiliar conditions. The "balanced" and "round" terms in that previous sentence are equally important. I was on skis that were 95 underfoot, which were narrower than what basically everybody else was on that day. They were definitely "work", but they "worked".

@mister moose -- yes, I've seen the same. There was a rope drop at Stowe earlier this year -- a couple inches of something white that I hesitate to call "snow". The carnage in the first 100 feet was remarkable.

The issue is that groomers can be skied in many different ways, most of which are limited to groomer conditions. But you can ski a groomer in a way that translates to virtually any other condition. 3D conditions force you to ski in a manner that groomers don't require -- but when you implement those "missing / non-required" elements on a groomer, you can get some serious wowzas.
 

LiquidFeet

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I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.
A lot of skiers ski firm snow groomers on flat skis. They rotate them to point in the new direction. The skis slip&slide as told, they take them around the corner, and the skiers skid downhill with little control at the end of the turn thinking this is OK. This is New England recreational skiing I'm talking about.

These skiers destroy knees and break legs in our heavy chop when they try to rotate the skis, because they are now down in the snow, not on top. @mister moose probably is talking about them. Sure, most will be aft since so many skiers are. They can get away with that on firm groomers, as long as they stay off the steepest ones. But their fundamental idea of how to initiate a turn is messed up.

Maybe this is what @markojp means when he says they aren't "moving with the skis."
 

Tony S

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I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.
Well, there are two things. One is absolutely foundational and one is just tweaks.

The foundational thing is that David's statement assumes that you are skiing groomers using tail-follows-tip turns. The large majority of groomer skiers in the Northeast do not and cannot actually make tail-follows-tip turns. In short, to channel Mr. Matta, it's not that you can't ski powder; it's that you can't ski, and the powder proves it.

I have used this analogy before but I'll use it again because I think it works. The NE skiers I see have learned to spin around on the snow arbitrarily, like they were piloting an Everglades fan boat. The direction their skis are pointing at any given moment bears essentially no relation to the direction they're traveling. A "turn," to them, means "turning the skis," not changing the direction of travel. "Windshield wipering" is one of the terms used to describe this habit. The exclusively 2D surface on all groomed slopes - i.e., most of them - is what enables this habit to develop and persist for years and decades.

Meanwhile skiing in powder is like piloting a deep-keeled sailboat. If you're booking along and whip the tiller over, you're gonna capsize. It's that simple. Instead you need to imagine the stern (tail) following the same path through the water that the bow (tip) took. For eastern skiers with very limited opportunities to ski powder, all of the work needed to make this pattern habitual and bulletproof needs to happen on the groomed.

The tweaks are just about things like distributing pressure a little differently depending on snow conditions, and about obstacles to release that are sometimes present in deep snow.

EDIT: Crossed posts with others, including @markojp and @KevinF AND @LiquidFeet ... slow composer ... apologies. We're all saying about the same thing.
 

David Chaus

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Great posts above.

Allow me to clarify that I was attended a 3 day skills camp, and all of us had been working on the various elements of phases of turns, carving as well as drifting/skidding where appropriate or useful (or fun). So we all had worked on the requisite skills to carve a turn on groomers, and were being coached to apply those to the cut up powder, rather than overthink it or try to do anything special to adapt to the conditions.

I might not give the same suggestion to someone who wasn’t ready for it, more likely they themselves would avoid the non-groomed slopes.
 

4ster

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The fundamentals are the same.
So true but we could say this about any condition & the only thing that changes is the DIRT & skill blend. It seems to me that there is a lot more to it than that as there are lots of subtleties not always perceived by the naked eye which can make a skier appear & even feel better/smoother in cut up snow.

I've heard this said several times, and I don't get it. I see groomer skiers go into cut up powder, attempt to ”Ski it like it’s a groomer!” and flounder and fall. Every powder day. By the dozen.
I could write a lot of words on this but if were to choose just one it would be ANKLES.
Cut up snow or chowder is something we have had a lot of in the west this season. The thing about it that gives us fits is that this condition is constantly speeding you up and slowing you down. The ability to subtly slide your feet fore and aft beneath your center of mass or as Marko says “move with your skis” becomes a huge deal to remain somewhat in balance.
It is a constant battle and I don’t think anyone ever feels great about it, probably my least favorite condition. Add the fact that in recent years you are constantly having to cross deep traverses every few turns turned the battle into a war
 

Tony S

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Cut up snow or chowder is something we have had a lot of in the west this season. The thing about it that gives us fits is that this condition is constantly speeding you up and slowing you down. The ability to subtly slide your feet fore and aft beneath your center of mass or as Marko says “move with your skis” becomes a huge deal to remain somewhat in balance.
It is a constant battle and I don’t think anyone ever feels great about it, probably my least favorite condition.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

OMG, I just snorted tea out my nose. Pretty sure @KevinF and I can come up with a long list of conditions we like less.

(Background for others: Several of us had a memorable afternoon skiing Snowbasin, guided by 4ster, last Tuesday, notwithstanding chowder and traverse lines. So he knows that I'm just pulling his chain a little because I think he's spoiled.)
 

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