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What wears out first, shell or liner?

Marker

Making fresh tracks
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The liner in my 2016 Lange RS 130 packed out in about 50 days, or at least enough that I started getting toe bang on my longer right foot. I had that toe box blown out, but ultimately I had to replace the liners with Intuition lace up tongue liners. That combo felt stiffer than the packed out Lange liner. An aftermarket liner is cheaper than buying new boots. I did that anyway this year to get a Gripwalk all mtn set-up from Atomic. Very nice Mimic liner in those.
 
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ssh

Steve "ssh" Hultquist
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I think that is vast under estimate of a quality liner. The better the boot, the better the liner but there are still limitation. Most high line boots and specifically race boots have liners that will go 100+ days.
I'm aware of another aspect of this... boot liners dying are rather like "overnight success": it happens very slowly and then all at once. I also think it depends on the skier's foot and physiology. For me, the "all at once" comes because my blasted feet are too narrow... I start to slide fore/aft. Of course, if I was skilled enough to never let my CoM move behind my heels, I'd never notice it. But, I'm not so I do. I'm starting to think I need to buy an extra set of liners every time I buy boots. Especially since it seems that aftermarket liners don't fit in my blasted shells, anyway. Ugh.
 

Philpug

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I'm aware of another aspect of this... boot liners dying are rather like "overnight success": it happens very slowly and then all at once. I also think it depends on the skier's foot and physiology. For me, the "all at once" comes because my blasted feet are too narrow... I start to slide fore/aft. Of course, if I was skilled enough to never let my CoM move behind my heels, I'd never notice it. But, I'm not so I do. I'm starting to think I need to buy an extra set of liners every time I buy boots. Especially since it seems that aftermarket liners don't fit in my blasted shells, anyway. Ugh.
I recall years ago you were in a Aggressor, what has worked for you recently?
 

ssh

Steve "ssh" Hultquist
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I recall years ago you were in a Aggressor, what has worked for you recently?
I'm honored you remembered!

I had a Lange RD 130 which packed out in a couple years and really didn't offer enough resistance to forward flex. I've been in a Doberman WC 150 for the past 3-4 years which worked well until midseason this year when the liners clearly stopped functioning well... so poorly that I started to have some pretty severe pain from the sixth toe area as well as the tuberosity of the fifth metatarsal leading to inflammation and frustratingly painful days. Took me a while to realize the cause, tho. I was trying to just replace the liners, but have had zero success so far. I'm thinking either that I'll get a pair of Tecnicas (and try to order an extra liner) or see if there are other options in aftermarket.
 

David

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You got 130 days in stock liners? Time for some Intuition's or ZipFit's!
 

BMC

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I have about 130 days on my Nordica Speedmachine 130s. I like them so much I bought a second pair when I saw them on sale. They are beginning to feel a little soft, and also a tiny bit more roomy around the ankles. When I bought them I had trouble flexing them, so I took out the top rivet. This week they felt soft, so I put that one back in and took out the bottom rivet instead. I may have to put both rivets in.

Anyway, my question is: Which part of a boot tends to wear out first, the plastic shell or the liner? Instead of just switching to my second pair (still in the box), I was thinking of either putting the old liner in the new shell or the new liner in the old shell. I could experiment with both, but I'm wondering if there is a general tendency for shells to go soft before liners pack out or the other way around.

Thanks!
Liners generally die first but

* If you’re doing a lot of walking on snow free roads or car parks without cat tracks or similar, your heel wear on the shell may become dangerous before the liner packs out, and

* A Zipfit liner will outlast your shell.
 

raytseng

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If the idea here was not just hypothetical, but related to a decision on getting the replacement liner; you can make an evaluation on the actual condition of the shell and try the specific pair rather than speaking "in general" or statistically. Especially considering he also had a reserve new pair of boots to compare against.

E.g. With the liner out, see if there is any cracks or breaks in the plastic that compromise the shell and flex; see if there is looseness in any of the rivets/pivot points as well as all other connections. As well as how bad are the ski cuts and how the heel/toe sole and binding points are "wearing".

Even though the shells are "supposed" to last longer; a weird impact or just your skiing behavior could cause THIS pair to not be worth re-upping a liner for a 2nd go-around.
 

Henry

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And, buying replacement great liners isn't easy. Zipfit are great; I've had good results with them. Intuition has a dozen or so models of downhill ski liners. Not all salesmen are good at picking the correct Intuition liner for the shell and the skier. If in doubt, contact the Intuition Liners home office direct. A friend bought Intuition liners from the largest ski shop in the region here. He had them re-molded two or three times, and they continued to be horrible. He finally happened to find the one employee there who knew his stuff and was told that they were the wrong liners for his shell. The right liners, at long last, worked great.

A note on NerdyKid's great post...a shoemaker's last is the foot-shaped model that a shoe, or boot, or liner is made around. A collection of lasts will be in all the sizes, lengths, widths, heights, volumes.
 

Cantankerous

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Just a little personal anecdote that might be related to this discussion: Here in Park City we have a lot of current and ex-ski teamers. One thing I've noticed pretty consistently: many/most have old, beaten up boot shells. I saw Lindsey skiing with a group of girls last year at DV; the entire group had an air of pro or ex-racer about them; they were all dressed very well, especially Lindsey; but their Head shells looked liked they were a decade old. I'm sure the liner and tongues are replaced frequently--but they seems to stay with the shell. Whenever --I'm trying to decide if Im looking at a bona fide racer--I look for old shells. And with Rossi HQ here--you see a lot of very old white Rossi Hero's on these ex-racers. No doubt they've replaced the liners dozens of times. FWIW
 

Paul Lutes

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Presumably this relates to racers having more customizing done on their shells, which usually takes a fair amount of time and effort?
 

James

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And with Rossi HQ here--you see a lot of very old white Rossi Hero's on these ex-racers. No doubt they've replaced the liners dozens of times.
I would doubt that with Lindsey and Head at least. She probably had dozens of shells to work with so not that much mileage on them.
 

MingDao

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Following up on this. Main question is where do you guys get a new liner? Haven't seen brand liners for sale separately or are you replacing stock liner with aftermarket one?
Thanks.
 

Marker

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Following up on this. Main question is where do you guys get a new liner? Haven't seen brand liners for sale separately or are you replacing stock liner with aftermarket one?
Thanks.
You can order online from Intuition and fill out a questionnaire to help me select the correct model for you. I did this a few years ago for a pair of Lange RS130. Intuition makes liners for Dalbello and the old Full Tilt models, so sort of a hybrid aftermarket product. They are not the premium products like Zip Fit.
 

JChockey22

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(Quoting Noodler, but this is a general response to the thread)
First Fit is most certainly a crucial aspect of making ski boots, and it shouldn’t be seen as a negative thing. As any boot-fitter will tell you, boots that never leave the back stock area are bad boots. Those boots stay back there mostly because they fit poorly. First Fit is so important because a customer will try one brand on their right foot and another brand on their left foot and within 30-60 seconds a decision will be made about which boot stays on and which boot goes back in the box. This is First Fit but it’s definitely not focused or limited to a cushy liner, so I think I need to spend a few minutes discussing what First Fit actually is.

First Fit is a combination of last shape and liner construction – it’s not one or the other, it’s both working together to create a winning fit. From a last perspective, a strong boot brand MUST offer a variety of anatomically shaped lasts in order to provide the correct starting point for people’s feet. Overly simplified, this means a narrow last for a narrow foot, a medium last for a medium foot, and a wide last for a wide foot. While it may be theoretically possible to have one super narrow boot that could expand to fit a wide, high-volume foot it would fit like garbage for 90% of people and very few would believe that it would work and/or risk the gamble on it doing so. And with the technologies and materials we currently have available, no brand can turn this into a feasible reality. So, a brand needs a variety of highly anatomic last shapes in order to best suit the variety of feet walking into the shop.

From there we move to liner constructions. You can have a great last shape but if you mess up the liner, it’s game over. So great care must be taken to develop a liner that not only offers a great anatomic fit, but also strikes a balance between initial comfort, customization potential, and long-term durability. Despite what some people may think, the liner is the most expensive single part of the ski boot (when you count the shell, cuff, buckles, etc. separately). Every liner is hand-made- from the foam layup to the sewing to the gluing. It’s an incredibly complicated part that is full of compromise. Very few skiers will buy a ski boot that does not feel good in the store and moreover very few skiers have 2-3 weeks of ski time to break it in before it starts to feel good. But believe me when I say that it is our goal to make a liner that feels good, has great customization potential and lasts as long as it can. As @Philpug mentioned, some liners don’t last that long simply because they are a lower-end product and brands can’t afford to put a $400 liner in $299 boot. Moreover, very few skiers are willing to drop $1,000 on a boot that has it all. Boot brands know this and it’s the reason why they haven’t bothered to do it themselves- they’ve decided to leave it up to aftermarket liner brands to do the rest. But personally, I think that’s a lazy attitude and I never agreed with it, which is why I’ve pushed to make the Professional Series.

First Fit. Customization potential. Comfort. Skiing performance. These are the pillars of our boot philosophy at Atomic. First Fit is only one aspect, but it is a necessary aspect (as are the rest).
I agree coming from a 110 K2 Spyne to the Hawx Ultra 130 the second my foot was seated in the Hawx I knew that this liner was legit and with last a while thats even before heating etc
 

James

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At the boot store.
Aftermarket would be Intuition, Boot Doc, Sidas, Zip Fit. Now it seems Atomic has liners. Race boots often can use other race liners.
 

David

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My shop was out of ZipFit liners so I did Intuition again. They're less expensive but I still get 150 days from them. Next boots will have ZipFit though.
 

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