What will help the sport of skiing grow?

[crgildart]

View attachment 31355

Those lines also seem to reflect regional snowfall for those years..

As for the travel and drive time, again, more feeder hills open rather than going out of business is the answer. Bigger fish tend to be farther away from the metroplex where lodging and expensive food are required for multi day sessions..

 

[SSSdave]

There had been numbers of threads on epic on how to boost skiing numbers. For decades since snowboarders began adding numbers to slopes, many middle class skiers complained resort costs were pricing them out of participation as resorts seemed to be targeting wealthy visitors. Thus all the resort infrastructure changes because those wealthier clients wanted the high speed lifts, the fancy lodging, better food, etc. Many middle class families particularly were priced out.

Lift tickets at the big resorts are painful but even more painful today are lodging costs. There was a time when even at places like Aspen where visitors had a few cheaper lodging choices. But not surprisingly more pricy lodging have always hated competing with cheaper lodging because at least decades ago there were a whole lot of cheap middle class skiers that really didn't care if several of them all crammed into a cheaper motel. Heck when one is 25, luxury issues rarely resonate. So those places have been flattened, rebuilt into fancy inns, and bought out with nightly fees jacked way up. I used to chime, if Aspen or Vail had a thousand room $29 Motel 6, a whole lot of hotels would go belly up because as I just noted, many more frequent skiers don't really care. They want to ski lots of days on exciting advanced terrain on their weekends while being able to afford to do so.

Another expense that is different today versus decades ago is transportation. Gas was once so cheap it was an insignificant cost factor. Today driving a 25mpg vehicle 400 miles costs about $50. Greater transportation costs impact those further from ski areas most.

Decades ago there were lots of middle class skiers that skied frequently. For someone that has dabbled a bit with skiing and learned its joys, eventually they will come to realize the only way they might attain the skill level of the many experienced skiers zipping circles around them on slopes is by committing more days each season to the sport. But that is difficult as costs increase. So even if we made lessons and equipment rentals for beginners and novices cheap, at some point many are going to face the high wall of costs that are sure to leave many wanting.

Some resorts have always catered to well to do destination skiers. That market is likely limited to numbers of wealthier people especially with greater distance from snowy regions. Likely not to change for the better but rather decrease as people age and USA career opportunities decrease in the global marketplace. There are of course several US regional snow sports areas each with their unique situations. I am only really familiar over the decades with Tahoe resorts. Resorts that depend heavily on 8-5 m-f working career people that mostly ski on weekends with far fewer destination skiers versus most Rockies resorts. And the Tahoe resorts except on fresh snow days are rather empty on weekdays. Some of the Rockies resorts like those close to Salt Lake City and Denver have more a mix of locals and destination skiers.

For West Coast region resorts, they need to target fit healthy urban young people people with higher paying jobs and college students that will eventually be making enough money to be able to afford skiing. The majority of those people have of course never ever participated in snow sports so don't know what they might be missing. To pry them away from cellphones, video games, and all manner of other urban leisure entertainments will require a different carrot than ski marketing people have ever offered. In Tahoe they could use the reality that mid week slopes are mostly empty to their advantage. By offering special week days with subsidized bus service with almost FREE skiing and equipment rentals to select hi tech companies and colleges, especially those students and workers with athletic orientations, they would find modest numbers of them would then discover skiing and pursue the sport. And I would suggest offering not just one day during the winter but rather say 3 that would give such unfamiliar people a better chance to reach the minimal skill level to be able to see the light.

 

[DanoT]

Plus there is another important point here. That article has tipped me over the cranky reactionary old geezer line. Anyone who thinks paddleboard yoga is a thing doesn't deserve the magic of skiing

Hey, I never even hear of the "sport" of Stand Up Paddleboard Yoga prior to logging on to this thread a few minutes ago. But I'll tell ya, the first thought that popped into my head was "SUP Yoga in a 3 foot swell", now that would be a hell of a sport.

Confession: It wasn't all that long ago that I learned the true meaning of SUP, because previously I thought it was the new cool way to say "What's up?"

 

[Viking9]

Dads who load up the car and say let's go to the mountains and the next time you can invite your friends.
It may just start with an inner tube but that might just be all it takes.
( To all you gals I'm not being sexist but just more conventional thinking ).

 

[Tricia]

One thing I'd add is that free time AND discretionary income are both less available in many ways for more numbers in the younger generations than when older generations were in their same time-place. The more our society can escape from the capitalistic burden of "work-more, play-less", the better off the ski industry, and our society, will be. All the other fixes suggested, IMHO, are short-term band-aids at best.

This rings true. And living the ski bumming life is getting harder as time goes by.

It is pretty funny to see Resort That Charges $180 for Daily Lift Ticket asking the question Why Don't Younger People Come Here Anymore?

I was thinking the same, while I was also thinking about how much more chatter resorts like Loveland, Mt Rose, Wolf Creek, Sunlight..and the like

I wonder how this would look if smaller hills weighed in.

 

[LKLA]

This rings true. And living the ski bumming life is getting harder as time goes by.


I was thinking the same, while I was also thinking about how much more chatter resorts like Loveland, Mt Rose, Wolf Creek, Sunlight..and the like


I wonder how this would look if smaller hills weighed in.

The chart should reflect all hills in those regions - small, medium and large. It is not just charting one type in particular. Any hill that is a member of NSAA.

Perhaps it does not reflect hills with 5 trails, but then again not sure it would much matter .

 

[eok]

For me, the escalating aggregate costs of skiing have been a drag on the sport for quite some time.

One thing I'm observing first hand: services like Air B&B seem to be having some impact. I live in a resort town (central Oregon). The previous few years, "vacation rentals" were a big issue here. Mainly because they virtually eliminated affordable long term rentals. But now it seems almost everyone is doing Air B&B - renting out a room in their place for a few days at a time to vacationers. Often cheaper than either a vacation rental or a hotel/motel/lodge stay. So, who knows, maybe this will help skier participation numbers.

Lift ticket prices are indeed a barrier. But many resorts have figured that out and offer deals on multi-day ticket bundles. Still, the pricing of those are often not THAT much of an incentive.

The multi-day bundle deal that makes me cringe is the kind that you get X consecutive days. Say you buy the 5 day deal; the day counter starts the first day you ski. If you ski three days and then miss a day then you lose that day (and so on). I could see how this could happen with younger skiers on a ski vacation at an area with tons of other things to do besides ski at the resort. I'm pretty sure Millennials appreciate flexibility in products and services.

Sure, I get it, the resort needs to make $$$. But if you look at this from another angle it suggests the resort makes a better margin if they sell a multi-day bundle and the customer misses one or more days. Perhaps some resort bean counters love this because it looks so good on paper. But I think that short term revenue advantage erodes the actual customer experience. I mean, the young customer goes to all the hassle & cost of arranging the ski vacation, travel, lodging, gear rental/lease/purchase. Dealing with winter conditions, they make to the resort buy a multi-day ticket bundle and then miss a day or two (for whatever reason) - so they view that as dollars wasted. That's a negative customer experience and THAT can make some customers re-think coming back again.

The other thing I personally feel is causing decline of the sport is the disappearance of the small ski areas. You know what I mean: the 'ol Mom&Pop privately owned small areas/hills. Family oriented and priced accordingly. They were definitely feeders to the sport. We need more of 'em, not less.

 

[Tricia]

Below is graph that shows annual skier visits across the four major US ski areas over the past 20 years. On average, the results are flat at best (some growth in the Rockies, flat in the Midwest and down in the East and the Pacific).

The chart should reflect all hills in those regions - small, medium and large. It is not just charting one type in particular. Any hill that is a member of NSAA.

Perhaps it does not reflect hills with 5 trails, but then again not sure it would much matter .

I guess I misunderstood that the "four major US ski areas over the past 20 years" from your post.

 

[Blue Streak]

Let me get this straight. We whine about ski areas being too crowded, but we worry about industry growth.
How ironic.

 

[Tricia]

Let me get this straight. We whine about ski areas being too crowded, but we worry about industry growth.
How ironic.

The concern is: the average age is getting older.
If we don't get youth interested, when the old people skiing with old people start dying off, it will be a ski slope with no people.

 

[Blue Streak]

The concern is: the average age is getting older.

Speak for yourself. I plan on getting younger.

when the old people skiing with old people start dying off, it will be a ski slope with no people.

And then people will say, "Wow, let's go skiing. It's not crowded and not expensive."

 

[Blue Streak]

I try to get my younger friends to try skiing, because I want THEM to have fun, not because I am concerned about the industry.
We love it, so we become ski evangelists (without the big hair, money, or hypocrisy).
The best promos for the Colorado ski industry come during Broncos games.

 

[fatbob]

I don't have many ideas to make skiing more affordable or convenient for the younger generations but have some ideas as to make it more fun and interactive for them.

Some interesting ideas there. I really don't know whether gamification of skiing has any traction. I guess you'd have to ask Vail what % of epic mix users are actively chasing points and pins. Without being the slightest bit motivated by it I seem to pick them up like candy for "achievements" like "Ski on a day with a y in it" and " ride X lift"


I think we have to be careful in assuming that resorts are actually capable of being tech developers and the danger of "old guy" thinking - the kids are really into video games let's make skiing more like a video game. The point is virtual rewards and collection of stuff is both a necessary mechanic and a reason to play again in games, in a real life activity such as skiing the feeling of the activity should be reward enough in itself. If anything truly meaningful does emerge in that space it will come from a third party who has found a way to monetise something.

I think the stuff like "safe" baby terrain parks and overhead cam/ drone zones has potential provided you can doll it up to make someone who sucks look pretty rad. But resorts would also have to stop viewing every additional thing as a source of incremental revenue and view them more as a differentiator and force of attraction. Otherwise the people using that airbag jump are the same rich folks kids who can afford $25 a pop or whatever.

 

[Fishbowl]

Let me get this straight. We whine about ski areas being too crowded, but we worry about industry growth.
How ironic.

I think that perspective is dependent on when you get to ski. For those of us still working and raising a family, we only get to ski on weekends and on holidays. So the slopes always seem to be crowded. The same is probably true for those that live in ski towns, but only get motivated to ht the slopes on powder days. Those very same resorts may seem empty to those lucky enough to ski midweek. The industry probably just looks at seasonal averages.

 

[Michael R.]

Maybe resorts can increase revenue by raising the cost of a lift ticket 50%-75% over a 10 year period?





......Nevermind, they've already done that

 

[HDSkiing]

I’m at the very tail end of the BB Gen. I’ve skied since I was in grade school as part of a Ski Club in Mi. doing youth racing. I skied a lot all the way through college (40-60 day seasons). Then reality hit and I entered the work force, pursued a career, got married and had kids. My ski days dropped to as low as a dozen days some seasons, even though I had a Season Pass at Taos.

Then as I gained more expendable income I started taking ski vacations and long weekends to CO just up the road for the total ski-in ski-out pampered experience, which I still enjoy. By the time I hit my mid 40’s I was back up to at least 3 dozen ski days a year. When rec skiing got boring I began teaching and now am on skis 80-100 days a season as a job.

So I guess I wonder if the moral of the story is just where people are in life. The BB are a large gen and it may just be a numbers issue. No doubt cost is a big part of it but the ski industry is a funny business. The ski area I work for is jammed, absolutely jammed to capacity on holidays and many weekends with out of staters and locals. During the week it drops dramatically, while I stay busy with school programs, adult groups and out of state visitors, the mountain has excess capacity during the week, which means you have to charge what you can at the Peak times which is when the majority of people ski.

I think the lure of the mountains and the thrill of descending them in a way only a bird could appreciate will always be there, making a profit doing it might be a different equation.

 

[Philpug]

Let me get this straight. We whine about ski areas being too crowded, but we worry about industry growth.
How ironic.

Wasn't it Yogi Berra that said "No one goes there any more, it's too crowded?" Actually that you ask is ironic, but the sport needs people, it needs new people to replace the ones that are lost be it to money, other option, or jsut things going on in life. From the gear perspective (I am sure we can get an instructor to chime in with their view) but one of the reasons we are seeing walk mode boots, and Gripwalk soles is to make it easier to get around base areas. Yes surveys have been and the boots that were not designed for walking around in is one of the things keeping people away, or not coming back. It is also one of the reasons people switched to snowboarding. I know more comfortable, lighter boots have been one of Glen Plakes missions of late. He gets it. Sure, the purists will disagree and say as ski boot is for skiing and not for walking but the purist one is not paying the bills and two are getting less and less. Mercedes Benz for years didn't put cup holders in their cars because "You should be driving zee car, not eating or drinking in zee car", well they were loosing sales, theu put cop holders in (along with making an SUV) sales started coming back.

People want easly and comfort, if it wasn't for snowboardings influence on ski design, and we were all still on straight skis, I think the sport would be in worse shape than it is now. I think companies like Armada and @JLev with Line and now J-Skis. brought a air of freshness to the sport wth the younger generation but they are all older now, who is going to backfill behind them? Which brings us back full circle to the original question. So from the gear aspect, I do see steps being made, more comfortable boots, pretty damn good new skis that are $399, but more still needs to be done. We have the epitome of a millennial @Cyrus Schenck bucking trends and not making skis for his age group but the 45-64 year olds (which is 60% of our readers). Why?

 

[jmeb]

As a millennial who just read this thread, as I went through I found myself liking most posts concerning costs of the sport, costs of overall vacations, and the different resources available to millennials at this point in their life course compared to previous generations: relatively little wage growth, an increase in income inequality, jobs that expect longer hours and relatively little vacation time, and much larger student loan debts on average. (Looking at many peers, I feel "lucky" to only be paying $300 in loan debt a month. But that is a pretty crazy amount when I compare it to other monthly bills -- my $0 car payment, my $900 spent on total housing expenses, etc.)

Now I am obviously not a representative millennial -- I grew up skiing and organize a large portion of my time and resources around it. (Seriously, its crazy to think about: for my ~50 days on the hill a year, I'll spend ~7% of my net income, and 6 of my 12 PTO days -- that's an insane allocation.) I still talk to a lot of people I used to ski with when I was a youngin' who loved it then. Only 2 of them still ski -- one like me who has chosen to make it a major focus of his life, the other his sister. To the other folks out there I encourage to come join me -- skiing is a shitty value proposition. Millennials were trained to admire adventure and thrift -- and compared to seeing another country skiing is hardly an adventure. And when I can go to France for 10 days, drink world class wine, stay in beautiful places, and eat good food for less than what a comparable week would cost saying in many US ski destinations....its no wonder we don't come to the hill.

Part of the problem to me is also that millennials see the mass crowds at many places, and decide its not worth it. (Especially with a sport that many equate with some peacefulness.) So more boomers skiing today (i.e. more and more people on the hill) means less millennials today and in the future. Boomers are more likely to spend $20 to avoid taking a shuttle from the parking lot, more likely to spend $250 on a hotel for a night to avoid driving to-from the next day, buy a "secret pass" to skip lift lines -- all these make the crowded situations more manageable. That's great for the current bottom line, but it doesn't train a bunch of skiers to get hooked and make it part of their yearly practice.

I think to understand this problem with more accuracy we need much more granular data: where are skier visits decreasing generation over generation? Regions, types of hills? Is it day trippers decreasing or family vacations?

 

[crgildart]

There are fewer feeder hill options close to major metro areas... so those survivor resorts are more crowded. Other than those the options involve overnight travel to be thrifty and get better lift ticket and lesson rates. If there were more options for short day trips, competition would bring prices down. Instead what has happened is that the requirements for bigger and bigger snowmaking infrastructure killed a lot of the mom and pops leaving fewer survivors who can now charge much higher rates.. and perhaps have to do maintain that greater infrastructure and higher insurance rates..

 

[Blue Streak]

Those are all brilliant and thought provoking points which I had not considered (which was the purpose of the provocation!
That's why I love this place!