What's your recipe for a traditional short radius non-carved turn

LiquidFeet

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I'd forgotten about that...
I enjoy meeting other skiers from the forum, and will take a few runs with just about anyone. That means sometimes you need to keep yourself entertained on blue or green runs. One game I sometimes play is to see how long I can stay behind them without "cheating" with sideways skids or long traverses.

I can't do it forever -- have to throw in a brake now and then -- maybe some of you can.
Those of us who are instructors of lower level skiers have to learn to go as slow as they do, and even slower, with turns they will like and want to mimic.

Given that, I've searched for and found sensations in snail-speed turns that I can enjoy.
 
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Scruffy

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Those of us who are instructors of lower level skiers have to learn to go as slow as they do, and even slower, with turns they will like and want to mimic.

Given that, I've searched for and found sensations in snail-speed turns that I can enjoy.
I have a couple physically challenged skiers, due to long term illness or other issues, in my circle of ski friends. They ski slowly due to their challenges. I ski behind them to buffer them from misguided missiles, and also to ski with them. If I'm ahead of them I tend to get too far ahead and then well, it's not skiing with them. I practice the Bob Barns slow line fast approach; carving what amounts to moving figure eights of short turns.
 

crgildart

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It's muscle memory that immediately follows a pole plant for me. I'm more conscious of my tip and carve. Shortswing just "happens" for me if I let it.
plant
turn
plant
turn
etc
Here's a vid
Wait what happened to "Weddlin" emoticon'"?? @Tricia

Kidding, there is more edge bite at the end of the turn than that for me. The edge bite creates energy to send the skis laterally to the next turn immediately.
 

Uncle-A

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I liked the Hart video that talked about quite hands. Keeping the hands forward and elbows slightly away from the body is something I try to do because I think it helps keep the upper body calm. Making short radius turns I think is easier with a calm upper body. I have not mastered the one turn per second but I do use the short radius turns to control my speed.
 

tube77

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Improving my traditional short radius non-carved turn has been a pet project of mine for the last few years, albeit one that I rarely pay attention to because I'm having too much fun slicing grooves in the snow, but improve I must. I'm sure there are others who want to improve their traditional short radius turns too.

By carve I mean pure arc-2-arc no-sideways-skiing; non-carved means the opposite, i.e. the kind of turn most folks were taught to use in order to control their speed and to make the skis turn tighter than they could make a clean pure arc-2-arc turn by tipping the ski way up on edge.

So have at it. What must be done to make one of these turns properly, according to your recipe? What do you do or teach in order to produce a bullet-proof traditional short radius turn.
What you are describing is called 'skidded short turn' which is technically distinguished from the 'carved short turn' or 'carving short turn'.
There are a few things that needs to be combined all together to achieve the 'skidded short turn'.

1. pole checking. pole checking. pole checking. --> must. will bring you back a balance. not just touch the snow. you really have to check (or poke) the snow. pole checking timing is important too.
2. rotary movement of your ankle and knee --> ankle rotation is more important to make a turn shorter. once you master the ankle rotation, you will be able to make the turn size shorter regardless of the ski length. To me it's more easier to make the 'skidded short turn' with the GS skis ( >180cm) because the SL skis tends to hook up too quickly making it like the carved turn so that I have to pay extra attention.
3. vertical up and down movement. --> you have to, literally, throw your COM into the fall line with up movement.
4. emphasized fore-apt movement --> strong pressure under the ball of your foot when turn initiation. raising your big toe will help you to feel the pressure under the ball. you really have to make the turn from the tip by giving it a strong pressure.
4. upper and lower body separation by countering.
 

SSSdave

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Video with Patrick Dineen making training wiggle turns on groomed slopes shows how bump skiers develop amazing back muscles in our bodies that is a neuromusculoskelectal structure evolved from our most ancient creature ancestors that were first wiggling worms with notochords, and then fish, then reptiles, then mammals. So for we skiers to get in touch deeply with our worm makes our whole back come to life again with types of unusual movement average humans only experience rolling out of bed.
 

markojp

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What you are describing is called 'skidded short turn' which is technically distinguished from the 'carved short turn' or 'carving short turn'.
There are a few things that needs to be combined all together to achieve the 'skidded short turn'.

1. pole checking. pole checking. pole checking. --> must. will bring you back a balance. not just touch the snow. you really have to check (or poke) the snow. pole checking timing is important too.
2. rotary movement of your ankle and knee --> ankle rotation is more important to make a turn shorter. once you master the ankle rotation, you will be able to make the turn size shorter regardless of the ski length. To me it's more easier to make the 'skidded short turn' with the GS skis ( >180cm) because the SL skis tends to hook up too quickly making it like the carved turn so that I have to pay extra attention.
3. vertical up and down movement. --> you have to, literally, throw your COM into the fall line with up movement.
4. emphasized fore-apt movement --> strong pressure under the ball of your foot when turn initiation. raising your big toe will help you to feel the pressure under the ball. you really have to make the turn from the tip by giving it a strong pressure.
4. upper and lower body separation by countering.
Watch this one again, the first 30 or so seconds in particular.

 
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Uncle-A

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Reference 3:00 to 4:30
This was an interesting video about drills. One thing he did not explain was why he was lifting the tip and then the entire inside ski? That does seem a bit old school, no RR Tracks or parallel shins and he doesn't talk about distance between the skis until the very end of the video.
 

JESinstr

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This was an interesting video about drills. One thing he did not explain was why he was lifting the tip and then the entire inside ski? That does seem a bit old school, no RR Tracks or parallel shins and he doesn't talk about distance between the skis until the very end of the video.
If you are talking the 2nd sequence, he is not lifting the inside ski. The inside ski is leaving the ground because of the increased dynamics (Circular carving force) created by the outside ski. What is interesting to me is that the tip is coming off first which indicates excessive force on the rear of the outside ski. When talking short radius our even "check turns" it is hard not to push the heel vs pivoting around the arch.
 

JESinstr

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I must admit I prefer snail's pace parallel turns to wedge turns at the same speed.
LF you might be missing the point. It is the independent, vertical and re-directional actions of the legs that is key. Matters not if it is done in a wedge configruation or parallel. IMO
 

LiquidFeet

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How come all these videos are shown on good snow? I want to see them do those turns on East Coast Blue ICE. Because it is not often we get good snow here in the east.
Right.
Polished, shiny, irregularly shaped ice bumps, please.
Groomers into which no pole will stick ... no b-netting.
Crowds.
 
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Uncle-A

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If you are talking the 2nd sequence, he is not lifting the inside ski. The inside ski is leaving the ground because of the increased dynamics (Circular carving force) created by the outside ski. What is interesting to me is that the tip is coming off first which indicates excessive force on the rear of the outside ski. When talking short radius our even "check turns" it is hard not to push the heel vs pivoting around the arch.
In some parts of the video he is lifting the entire ski.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Those of us who are instructors of lower level skiers have to learn to go as slow as they do, and even slower, with turns they will like and want to mimic.

Given that, I've searched for and found sensations in snail-speed turns that I can enjoy.
I think you've skied with the Boyds a bit or at least maybe talked to them. They talk sometimes about a "performance culture" meaning that we should always be "on" and trying to do a sport when we ski. Not just standing around on skis making the golf cart jokes true. So I know what you mean. Trying to do those slower smaller turns, but demoing a performance turn at the same time. That's what I aim to do anyway - never letting yourself go, but always trying to look like an athlete doing a sport.
 
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