What's your recipe for a traditional short radius non-carved turn

Bad Bob

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Start with a large quantity of upper body separation.
Add significant weight transfer to the big tow of the new outside ski.
Stir in a large amount of steering from the femurs and knees.
Add edging and angulation to taste.
For best results use minimum upper body motion.

You asked for a recipe. :ogcool:
 

Scruffy

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Josh is lurking. He asked that I post this video for you. Icy bumps. You can all feel free to MA etc., you have his permission.
Good stuff Josh. Good to see you again. Ski the islands of snow in that sea of ice.
 

Uncle-A

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Josh is lurking. He asked that I post this video for you. Icy bumps. You can all feel free to MA etc., you have his permission.
OK, Josh found a few small patches of ice. Most of the video he was on soft shaved hard pack.
 

markojp

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How come all these videos are shown on good snow? I want to see them do those turns on East Coast Blue ICE. Because it is not often we get good snow here in the east.
They can be done on hard snow as well.. just pay attention to getting to the new outside ski early above the fall line. Platform angle is critical.
 

crgildart

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We used to do "funnel drills" to refine the shortswing. Space your turns like you are skiing in to a funnel. Big wide arcing turns at the top, tightening up the radius of the turns as you go until you are turning back and forth as fast as you can.. then gradually open them back up again... rinse and repeat....
 

Rod9301

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What you are describing is called 'skidded short turn' which is technically distinguished from the 'carved short turn' or 'carving short turn'.
There are a few things that needs to be combined all together to achieve the 'skidded short turn'.


2. rotary movement of your ankle and knee --> ankle rotation is more important to make a turn shorter. once you master the ankle rotation, you will be able to make the turn size shorter regardless of the ski length.
3. vertical up and down movement. --> you have to, literally, throw your COM into the fall line with up movement.
Bad advice.

No need to turn the ankles and the up movement is not needed.

Flex to release, tip like crazy and pull the inside foot back
 

Skitechniek

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Bad advice.

No need to turn the ankles and the up movement is not needed.

Flex to release, tip like crazy and pull the inside foot back
Ughh, the PMTS galore back at it again. :rolleyes:

If you like PMTS that is fine, but there are more ways to become proficient at skiing. It's bizarre how many people have been brainwashed into that kind of thinking, sometimes it feels like a cult.
 
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Rod9301

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Ughh, the PMTS galore back at it again. :rolleyes:

If you like PMTS that is fine, but there are more ways to become proficient at skiing. It's bizarre how many people have been brainwashed into that kind of thinking, sometimes it feels like a cult.
Maybe a cult, but all racers are doing this.
 
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François Pugh

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Flex release versus other release addressed well here. More than one way works.
Nice extension releases in the beginning of the video - on the steep pitch.

Nice comparison here on Sofa ski on the extension vs flex to release for short turns at interski
I appreciate all contributions.
Videos are great, but what you don't see also matters. Ideally what specific movements and actions to use in order to produce the turn along with a video demonstration would be ideal.

BTW, there is a lot of "hidden rotary" in some of those turns, IMHO even a PMTS brushed carve with a low-enough edge angle has some in it, albeit not enough to rotate a tipped ski. Trying to avoid rotary will be the quicker path to pure carved turns (also like, just my opinion mang). I also found out that trying to pivot my skis hurt my knees, when I first decided to learn proper bump skiing, not that long ago (10 to 15 years), but a PMTS brushed carve, without enough understanding of the rotary associated with some of its moves was not quick enough.

BTW, my opinion of their system is ungrounded; I'm not a disciple, just read some books (decades after already being a carveaholic) and tried to apply it to see how well it worked. I realized it wasn't for me when I got chastised on their web site for advising a fellow speed freak he might want to compromise a bit and get a slightly longer turn radius ski than ideal for learning.
 

LiquidFeet

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....
Flex to release, tip like crazy and pull the inside foot back
...
brushed carve, without enough understanding of the rotary associated with some of its moves was not quick enough....
Two short turn mechanics with an important difference.
You can make the first type shorter by adding active rotation to it.

1. Brushed carve
--narrow stance
--flex new inside leg to release
--tip its ski like crazy
--pull that foot back

2. Shorter turn than that
--narrow stance
--flex new inside leg to release
--tip its ski like crazy
--pull that foot back
--actively rotate the new inside leg to point its knee into the new turn
 

SSSdave

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Josh is lurking. He asked that I post this video for you. Icy bumps. You can all feel free to MA etc., you have his permission...
That is exactly how I navigate at reduced speed from optimum flow with ridiculously short turns, unpleasant and ugly bump areas. The same short turn jump about strategy can be applied on steep winch groomed slopes where piles of loose snow are interspersed with skied off hard to edge icy flat slabs. Also useful for those skiing steep narrow chutes. Requires excellent upper to lower body separation turn skills and good near snow surface visibility.
 
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geepers

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BTW, there is a lot of "hidden rotary" in some of those turns, IMHO even a PMTS brushed carve with a low-enough edge angle has some in it, albeit not enough to rotate a tipped ski. Trying to avoid rotary will be the quicker path to pure carved turns (also like, just my opinion mang). I also found out that trying to pivot my skis hurt my knees, when I first decided to learn proper bump skiing, not that long ago (10 to 15 years), but a PMTS brushed carve, without enough understanding of the rotary associated with some of its moves was not quick enough.
With the sore knees I'm guessing that the pivoting movement was coming from the lower leg/foot. Whilst rotary of the lower leg/feet have their place in skiing (mainly to de-edge the skis) rotation of the skis should come from the femurs rotating in the hip sockets. The thigh rotates and the lower leg/foot just comes along for the ride.

Two ways of actively rotating the skis from femurs rotating:
1. Extend perpendicular to the pitch so the legs are long and can be actively rotated when the skis are flat. There's not much torque available - think screwdriver - so the skis can really only be pivoted when flat (or nearly so). (There was a good CSIA demo on vimeo but it seems to have gone so this will have to do.)



2. With flexed legs rotate the knees. The lower the flex the more torque is available (fatter handled screwdriver or even a small wrench) however it's still not a whole heap so the skis will need to be somewhat flat to pivot.



(This is the method I prefer for shorts on as the pitch gets steep. If the knees go down the hill from the old turn helps prevent the body rising. I don't think flex to release as I'm already flexing to manage the pressure and control rebound - well, on the day the turns are working ok.)

Either of these methods allows the skis to be pivoted at the top of the turn to create a steering angle and then edging can be used to control the amount of drift/grip. Hopefully keep the knees safe.

Already posted the vid (post #2 this thread, CARV vid) on using fore/aft balance to pivot the skis. In that case the femurs still rotate in the hip sockets but it's passive - the skis are driving the process.

Seems to me there's a lot in common with the last approach and PMTS although there's less focus on the inside ski. Can the inside ski really add that much torque to the redirection of the ski? I suppose it does in telemarking however however my guess is that it is another low torque method for creating a steering angle.

In term of active rotary here's well known skier doing plenty of active rotation - just does it in the air.

 
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François Pugh

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@ Geepers, Yeah, pivot slips, I do them for a bit every two or three years, just before my on-snow Ski Patrol recertification to make sure I can still do them. :ogbiggrin:

If you don't mind, could you break down "pivoting the femurs inside the hip socket"?

I would like to distinguish two (of the infinite variety) motions that are possible in this ball and socket joint.
One I will describe as a rotation about the axis of the femur, which if standing straight would point the toe in or out. the other I will describe as with the knee level with the hip moving the knee left or right without any rotation of the femur about its long axis, which also has the effect of pointing the toes left or right (or in or out if you prefer). the second does have the femur rotating about the hip joint, but about a (vertical) axis perpendicular to the femur and through the end of it.

Thanks.
 

geepers

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@ Geepers, Yeah, pivot slips, I do them for a bit every two or three years, just before my on-snow Ski Patrol recertification to make sure I can still do them. :ogbiggrin:

If you don't mind, could you break down "pivoting the femurs inside the hip socket"?

I would like to distinguish two (of the infinite variety) motions that are possible in this ball and socket joint.
One I will describe as a rotation about the axis of the femur, which if standing straight would point the toe in or out. the other I will describe as with the knee level with the hip moving the knee left or right without any rotation of the femur about its long axis, which also has the effect of pointing the toes left or right (or in or out if you prefer). the second does have the femur rotating about the hip joint, but about a (vertical) axis perpendicular to the femur and through the end of it.

Thanks.
Yep, that's it.
 

Chris V.

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Two ways of actively rotating the skis from femurs rotating:
1. Extend perpendicular to the pitch so the legs are long and can be actively rotated when the skis are flat. There's not much torque available - think screwdriver - so the skis can really only be pivoted when flat (or nearly so). (There was a good CSIA demo on vimeo but it seems to have gone so this will have to do.)
2. With flexed legs rotate the knees. The lower the flex the more torque is available (fatter handled screwdriver or even a small wrench) however it's still not a whole heap so the skis will need to be somewhat flat to pivot.
Quite a contrast in the definition of "pivot slips" between those two video segments!
 

LiquidFeet

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Quite a contrast in the definition of "pivot slips" between those two video segments!
Exactly.
The first video uses an extension release.
The second video uses a flexion release.
In pivot slips, the difference between these two releases is highlighted since so little else is going on.

Learning to do both types of pivot slips, on command, and making sure they are as different from each other as possible, is an excellent exercise in building skill versatility.
Once you can do those two, you certainly can make turns that either use extension or flexion.
Some people on this forum have said they've never seen anyone do that.
It can be done if you chase it.
 
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